Please help me... I feel like I lost my child

33055

Tue, Mar 26 2019, 11:41 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm sorry but your minor in sx has warped your thinking.

Tayvos are normal, but to follow tayvos to the nth degree is extremely destructive in every possible way. I'm living in a sheltered community, but imamother has opened my eyes to some of the depravity that is out there. In short, the p0rn available today is not related in any way shape or form to the p0rn that was available in my generation. All this Is so completely new and frightening that there is no way to know the long term repurcussions, and unfortunately the preliminary anecdotal evidence is really not good, to put it mildly.

Many of you on this thread seem to think this is a frumkeit issue. While of course we do want our children to grow up frum, I think we can all agree that everyone, Jew or non-Jew, white or black, wants their children to grow up to be decent human beings. And this particular boy, from the way OP described him, is on the fast lane to... not.

I simply don't understand how anyone can advocate unconditional acceptance. Unconditional love - yes, we should all love our children no matter what, and hopefully we do. But don't we want our children to grow up as decent human beings? Good husbands, and good fathers? To become the very best and accomplish the most that they can?

How can parents just watch and allow their children to self destruct? Do you really love your child if you allow this to happen? Do you really love your child if you don't at least try to change him to be a better person? I just don't understand some of the attitudes here on this thread.

I think you are a younger generation than me, but you are wrong about p0rn. P0rn was readily accessible in a variety of places when I was a child. For example, p0rn used to be available in 7 -11s on the magazine rack. As young children, we could view this. P0rn was found in library books and books sold in Woolworths which I came across without looking for it.

Nowadays, you can limit it with passwords. I don't get it in my face of I go to a convenience store.

Mommyg8

Tue, Mar 26 2019, 11:55 pm

Squishy wrote:

Ok, then you are still innocent. I didn't say it wasn't available, of course it was. I'm saying that the TYPE of p0rn available, and the access, was simply not there when I was growing up. I can't describe what I mean because like I said, I grew up in a different time - I simply can't get the words out of my mouth to be more explicit.

Do some googling. Go on reddit. Then we can talk.

amother

Tan

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:57 am

Quote:

Tayvos are normal, but to follow tayvos to the nth degree is extremely destructive in every possible way. I'm living in a sheltered community, but imamother has opened my eyes to some of the depravity that is out there. In short, the p0rn available today is not related in any way shape or form to the p0rn that was available in my generation. All this Is so completely new and frightening that there is no way to know the long term repurcussions, and unfortunately the preliminary anecdotal evidence is really not good, to put it mildly.

First, p0rn is accessible indeed. You can find it any and everywhere. But that does not say that you can't talk about that or you can give some awareness about p0rn s-xual development starts already in the womb. A 4 year old can feel difference between feeling his ear and his private place and has a different feeling with there. The art is how can you explain all this? How can you be aware for what is happening. Learn about tayvos and explain it that there are images which can be excited but that is a fantasy it is not real it is all fake. And there for we should not watch it because the goal is to marry and be a good husband and father indeed.

Quote:

How can parents just watch and allow their children to self destruct? Do you really love your child if you allow this to happen? Do you really love your child if you don't at least try to change him to be a better person? I just don't understand some of the attitudes here on this thread.

It seems that you are suggesting that I will watch and allow my children to self destruct? If my kid watch p0rn I would not fight with him or her I would tell them '' Hey sweetie listen, you don't need to answer but I've been browsing on my computer and I saw p0rn on the internet and I want to talk with you about that. It is normal for your age to get interested in those things but this is all fake and it is an aveira. Of course it is exciting but it is not reality women don't have these figures and you don't need to be like this men or women appearing in these films. We want you to understand that we think zexuality is so sacred and special that you share with someone who you love and you marry with. That is what we want to educate to you and therefore you are forbidden to watch filth''. That.

leah233

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:20 am

Quote:

If your child would listen to something like that then you are dealing with a child who is not even remotely like the OPs child.

On a general note I'm relatively confident that all the big talkers on this thread about unconditional love and acceptance have either (1) never been in the OPs situation and or (2)would not be so bothered by a child going OTD that they are capable of understanding her point of view.

If however it was their child who was turning to a different lifestyle they passionately opposed as self destructive and acting super confrontational (to put it mildly)throughout the process they would be singing a different song.

Zehava

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:26 am

leah233 wrote:

Quote:

If your child would listen to something like that then you are dealing with a child who is not even remotely like the OPs child.

On a general note I'm relatively confident that all the big talkers on this thread about unconditional love and acceptance have either (1) never been in the OPs situation and or (2)would not be so bothered by a child going OTD that they are capable of understanding her point of view. If however it was their child who was turning to a different lifestyle they passionately opposed as self destructive they would be singing a different song.

Keep telling yourself that. If it helps you sleep at night.
If something is self-destructive it isn’t a lifestyle. It’s an an illness or addiction. No human being wants to self-destruct it goes against human nature. So if someone is intentionally harming themselves it’s usually out of tremendous pain or an addiction he can’t break. Many times both.
A lifestyle is something a person chooses because they believe in it. They decide that this is what they want. It makes them fulfilled. They think it’s the true way to live.
And that is the free will we have to respect. Same as we respect it in any human being on the planet (hopefully we do).

leah233

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:36 am

Zehava wrote:

If something is self-destructive it isn’t a lifestyle. It’s an an illness or addiction. No human being wants to self-destruct it goes against human nature. So if someone is intentionally harming themselves it’s usually out of tremendous pain or an addiction he can’t break. Many times both.
A lifestyle is something a person chooses because they believe in it. They decide that this is what they want. It makes them fulfilled. They think it’s the true way to live.
And that is the free will we have to respect. Same as we respect it in any human being on the planet (hopefully we do).

Quite frankly I think you are the one who needs to convince yourself of what you are saying. Why else are you repeating it so OCD like on every thread of this nature? (This is my first comment on this thread)

I'm not responding further to someone who tries to manipulate me in to being quiet or accepting her point of view by saying Keep telling yourself that. If it helps you sleep at night. as if there is no legitimate way I can come to such a conclusion .

Such people can not be reasoned with .

33055

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:48 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Honestly, I have no interest in googling p0rn. We weren't as aware then of the dangers of p0rn. If you went to 7 -11 for a soda, it was right there in your face, and the brown wrappers came later.

The 60s was the generation of peace and love and zexual exploration. The Happy Hooker was displayed and accessible to children in the public library.

amother

Mauve

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:01 am

I’m baffled by many responses. Obviously many of you have not had the misfortune to deal with what OP is going through.
It is not normal for a 13 year old boy to be cursing and plain oppositional defiant. Re the p0rn ... no it’s not normal at 13.
Unconditional love is thrown around like some kind of mitzva. Some people are not very lovable be they your children or strangers.
A parent has an inate love for a child however there’s a long way from that to liking, loving that person.
Please stop piling on the guilt onto OP. She’s suffering enough. To tell her to love him unconditionally just increases her pain. She loves the little boy she gave birth to inately she does not need to like or love the persona he’s becoming. She loves his pure neshama just like Hashems love for us. She does not need to love his actions.
OP, I have a child similar to yours (we would not tolerate cursing or disrespect or not keeping mitzvos under our roof). Things got worse as he went away to Yeshiva & was not under our control. This is not my thread so I won’t bore you with our many years of suffering which see no end. Our sleepless nights. Our blinding crushing pain. Our guilty wishes he had never been born.
We sought much professional help from the mental health industry & poured many thousands into the bottomless pit.
The result is that our child was born with a personality disorder which was apparent from a young age.
We mourn the child we brought into the world & love that child. We suffer physical pain that the pure neshama inside this very troubled individual is suffering. Do we love this adult who causes us & others such pain. No. I can say this without any guilt now. We do not love who he has become. We mourn the child we love more than the whole world as only parents can but we do not recognise or love this persona.
You can all judge away but you’re not living our hell.
These days we accept our reality. He’s an adult . All we can do is daaven that he gets the help he needs.
My advice OP? Enforce rules in your home. Find a psychiatrist who specialises in personality disorders . Daaven.

Mommyg8

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:11 am

Zehava wrote:

I'm sorry but this is pure baloney. It completely does NOT go against human nature to want to self destruct - this is the yetzer harah that is within all of us. In any case, a child, and yes a boy of 13 is still a child, has no idea that the road they are on leads to self destruction.

There were two points to my original post - a. We have to parent, teach children right from wrong - and yes, that includes yiddishkeit, and b. Even without being frum, we still have a moral obligation to raise our children to be decent human beings.

No, this does viewpoint does not help me sleep at night, but some of us do not feel that we have the option of living in a make believe world.

I stated this story earlier upthread under amother, and I'll repeat it again in my SN:

A chosid came to his Rebbe and cr מיין זון איז געווארען משוגע ער עסט חזר און טאנצט מיט פרויען. דער רעבע האט געענפערט, נר איז נישט משוגע ער איז נארמאל. וואלט ער געוויין משוגע וואלט ער געגעסן פרויען און טאנצט מיט חזרס.

My FIL used to repeat this story often - he was the only one in his family who remained frum (he was born in the early 1930's).

Mommyg8

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:19 am

Squishy wrote:

You didn't understand what I meant. I don't have time or inclination to spell it out, I'm sorry.

You don't have to Google p0rn, you can read some of the many articles on this topic as go how today's p0rn is different and how terribly destructive it is.

I don't agree with the approach of keeping your head in the sand.

Zehava

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:22 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I love your story because it proves my point. The difference between self-destruction and a chosen lifestyle.

gold21

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:29 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm guessing that back in the day p*rn was nudity and nowadays it's explicit s*xual acts? This is my random guess.

Zehava

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:30 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

So I'm slow today - how does it prove your point?

There’s mental illness, self destruction, ie eating women which is clearly self destructive right? Addiction, crime, inability to relate to other people etc. etc. etc. that is something that while loving the child we’d have an obligation to help them overcome. Clearly an addict is not happy or healthy and will eventually die or end up on the streets or in prison.
Then there’s eating chazer and dancing with women. Not crazy. Not self-destructive. It’s a lifestyle. It’s a lifestyle you oppose yes. But it’s a lifestyle that millions of emotionally healthy happy people are living. And if it’s a lifestyle your child chooses that is not a reason to reject him, pretend accept him, or wish he was never born.

Zehava

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:31 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

So I'm slow today - how does it prove your point?

I have met many middle aged non Jewish women who are raising their grandchildren because their children are in and out of rehabilitation. This is where "unconditional acceptance" leads to.

Huh
So the nonjewish world is depraved and drug addicted and all because they are so unconditionally accepted.
So there are no Jewish addicts.
Is that right?

Mommyg8

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:38 am

Zehava wrote:

Huh
So the nonjewish world is depraved and drug addicted and all because they are so unconditionally accepted.
So there are no Jewish addicts.
Is that right?

וויאזוי קריסטאלט זיך אזוי יידלט זיך.

There were no drug addicts in the Jewish world 100 years ago, but then again, there were very few non Jewish drug addicts as well.

And yes, unconditional acceptance has seeped into our world; who's to say that that is not the reason?

WhatFor

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

I'm sorry for your pain.

I hope your child finds friends or a mate who loves him for who he is.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 10:52 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I am older too and I can assure you that the p0rn available back then and the p0rn available now was there. In the old days you needed to source video tapes and magazines but it was still out there. You can get it quicker now for sure, but that is the same with most things good and bad bought on the Internet. But as another poster pointed out there is restricted access and often payment needed now so in many ways, in “our” day it was easier.

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Mar 27 2019, 11:05 am

amother wrote:

Your post is condescending. You aren’t sorry at all you just think I don’t accept him for who he is & someone else can/will.
Loved for who he is? Read my post please .
There’s nothing loveable about a personality disorder.
What is loveable about a sociopath?

These challenges are better off being discussed in support groups.

People who have children who are on the straight path have no idea what it is like to deal with rebellious/otd children.

I’ve gotten comments on threads I’ve written saying if their child had a girl/boy friend they would embrace it and feel no pain or shame.
I’m glad there are people out there who are this naive.