Home

Thought experiment.
1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> In the News -> Politics

View latest: 24h 48h 72h


simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 6:42 pm
Wonder if people are willing to try this thought experiment.

Every time I read vitriolic posts about illegal immigrants I change the words "illegal immigrant" in my head to "Jew". I often hear the 1930s when I do this.

Any conservatives willing to try this for a while to see if it alters their perspective at all?

What thought experiment would you like to see others try?
Back to top

Kiwi13




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 6:46 pm
Not getting into the thick of the issue, but that is a faulty comparison. The Jews in the 1930s were lawful citizens, among many, MANY other differences.

Everybody deserves humane, dignified treatment, and again, I'm not here to debate the "what to do about it" part of immigration, but it bothers me when people make comparisons like that. It's just plain not the same thing.
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 6:51 pm
Kiwi13 wrote:
Not getting into the thick of the issue, but that is a faulty comparison. The Jews in the 1930s were lawful citizens, among many, MANY other differences.

Everybody deserves humane, dignified treatment, and again, I'm not here to debate the "what to do about it" part of immigration, but it bothers me when people make comparisons like that. It's just plain not the same thing.


I'm not saying it's the same thing, but I do think the rhetoric used is similar. The thought experiment is to see if it raises compassion.
Back to top

ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:00 pm
Yes, I think if Jews committed crimes they should be punished. Please link to a post on imamother where you could replace the word illegal with Jew. I assume this is in reference to my recent thread about the 2 tiered justice syste.
Back to top

Kiwi13




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:01 pm
simcha2 wrote:
I'm not saying it's the same thing, but I do think the rhetoric used is similar. The thought experiment is to see if it raises compassion.


What rhetoric are you referring to? I don't see people demonizing them as people or as a culture or whatever else. It's largely a security issue and making sure that we first have enough resources to care for our own, legal citizens. Factor in issues of terrorism and crime, and whatever else... nobody I know who is pro-wall is anti-hispanic or anti-any other group. They are PRO keeping America safe and strong. This is very much an issue of policy, nothing to do with any specific group of people or religion or ethnic background.

If you're referring to rhetoric demonizing groups of people and calling for their destruction, then yes, I agree that would be similar. I just don't see this as anything even close to the same thing.
Back to top

Raisin




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:03 pm
Kiwi13 wrote:
Not getting into the thick of the issue, but that is a faulty comparison. The Jews in the 1930s were lawful citizens, among many, MANY other differences.

Everybody deserves humane, dignified treatment, and again, I'm not here to debate the "what to do about it" part of immigration, but it bothers me when people make comparisons like that. It's just plain not the same thing.


What is a lawful citizen? I'm sure some Jews in 1930's Europe were criminals if that is what you mean.

Nobody had done much to the Jews in Germany in 1935. They were not being exterminated yet.
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:07 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Yes, I think if Jews committed crimes they should be punished. Please link to a post on imamother where you could replace the word illegal with Jew. I assume this is in reference to my recent thread about the 2 tiered justice syste.


Yes, that's what prompted the question. Of course when Jews fled on fake visas in the 30s or illegally entered Palestine (as it was at the time) they were committing crimes.

I'm not trying to equate the two, I'm trying to see if it changes opinion.

If people don't think they're willing or capable of trying something, don't try. But I'm curious if anyone is willing to try something that challenges their worldview.
Back to top

Kiwi13




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:09 pm
Raisin wrote:
What is a lawful citizen? I'm sure some Jews in 1930's Europe were criminals if that is what you mean.

Nobody had done much to the Jews in Germany in 1935. They were not being exterminated yet.


I mean that most of them were citizens, and they were mostly NOT criminals, even if a few were. They were not a group endangering the welfare of their host countries. They were also not being "deported" anywhere, but rather killed. I quoted the year in the OP, I'm not claiming specifics about the exact historical timeline.
Back to top

youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:42 pm
I think the comparison is valid, if we consider that the only crime most illegal immigrants have committed is that of illegal entry, which was also true of Jews who used forged visas, false passports, and other illegal methods of surviving and leaving Europe. Many eastern European Jews were socialists, anarchists, and other "rabble rousers" and undesirables against whom public opinion had risen up during the first Red Scare.

(I'm also not sticking to a very specific timescale, as the Red Scare was in the late 19teens and Jews surviving/escaping the Holocaust with false papers came decades later).
Back to top

Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 7:44 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Wonder if people are willing to try this thought experiment.

Every time I read vitriolic posts about illegal immigrants I change the words "illegal immigrant" in my head to "Jew". I often hear the 1930s when I do this.

Any conservatives willing to try this for a while to see if it alters their perspective at all?

What thought experiment would you like to see others try?


Since there is no comparison between the 2 groups, the experiment is irrelevant.

[I'm not saying it's the same thing, but I do think the rhetoric used is similar. The thought experiment is to see if it raises compassion.quote]

I believe that when you have more compassion for illegal lawbreakers than for American citizens’ safety, that compassion is quite misplaced.
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:03 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Since there is no comparison between the 2 groups, the experiment is irrelevant.

[I'm not saying it's the same thing, but I do think the rhetoric used is similar. The thought experiment is to see if it raises compassion.quote]

I believe that when you have more compassion for illegal lawbreakers than for American citizens’ safety, that compassion is quite misplaced.


I didn't assume you would be willing to test your own assumptions. But someone else might.
Back to top

ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:03 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Yes, that's what prompted the question. Of course when Jews fled on fake visas in the 30s or illegally entered Palestine (as it was at the time) they were committing crimes.

I'm not trying to equate the two, I'm trying to see if it changes opinion.

If people don't think they're willing or capable of trying something, don't try. But I'm curious if anyone is willing to try something that challenges their worldview.


Don't lie. You are totally trying to equate the two
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:06 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Don't lie. You are totally trying to equate the two


Read the post. I'm not lying. I don't think they are equivalent. I do think a lot of the rhetoric is the same. (Nuanced, I know).

I realize that many people are unwilling to challenge their own worldview. Some people are.

If you're not capable of doing so, great. But calling me a liar, is simply nasty and uncalled for.
Back to top

sushilover




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:17 pm
You'll have to convince me that I'm lacking in compassion before I try this thought experiment in order to increase my compassion.

I have a great deal of compassion for illegal immigrants. They are mostly making the trip for financial reasons, trying to make a better life for themselves. But the trip is dangerous, brutal, and they are making it harder for us to take in legal immigrants and care for our own impoverished citizens.
Women and girls are routinely raped on the way over, people are trafficked, and human and drug traffickers take advantage of our compassion by coming with children so that they can be released quickly if caught.
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:23 pm
sushilover wrote:
You'll have to convince me that I'm lacking in compassion before I try this thought experiment in order to increase my compassion.

I have a great deal of compassion for illegal immigrants. They are mostly making the trip for financial reasons, trying to make a better life for themselves. But the trip is dangerous, brutal, and they are making it harder for us to take in legal immigrants and care for our own impoverished citizens.
Women and girls are routinely raped on the way over, people are trafficked, and human and drug traffickers take advantage of our compassion by coming with children so that they can be released quickly if caught.


Why not try it. See if it changes how you see the relationship between people.

I'm open to any similar idea if someone will suggest it.
Back to top

1untamedgirl




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:31 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Wonder if people are willing to try this thought experiment.

Every time I read vitriolic posts about illegal immigrants I change the words "illegal immigrant" in my head to "Jew". I often hear the 1930s when I do this.

Any conservatives willing to try this for a while to see if it alters their perspective at all?

What thought experiment would you like to see others try?

How about exchange Palestinians with Jews and reverse the roles with Jews living in Gaza and Palestinians living in Israel. Based on your premise, Israel should give up their rights to sovereignty just to appease and accommodate the Palestinians who want to see Israel destroyed. Why should Jews give up Israel when there are plenty of Muslim countries that Palestinians could live in if they don't want to live in Gaza? That is what you are asking from America that we give up our sovereignty and allow anyone into the country without regard to our well being. Why should we do that?


Last edited by 1untamedgirl on Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:32 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Read the post. I'm not lying. I don't think they are equivalent. I do think a lot of the rhetoric is the same. (Nuanced, I know).

I realize that many people are unwilling to challenge their own worldview. Some people are.

If you're not capable of doing so, great. But calling me a liar, is simply nasty and uncalled for.


Like which rhetoric.

How about replace Nazi with Jew. A lot of the rhetoric is the same. Will help you be more open minded.
Back to top

flowerpower




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:32 pm
What are you trying to accomplish exactly? I should have the same amount of compassion for illegals that risk their kids being killed on the way, hate America but come to live here for free off your tax money, smuggle drugs and human traffickers to my fellow brothers???
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:42 pm
flowerpower wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish exactly? I should have the same amount of compassion for illegals that risk their kids being killed on the way, hate America but come to live here for free off your tax money, smuggle drugs and human traffickers to my fellow brothers???


No, you should try challenging your own assumptions.
Back to top

simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Mar 27 2019, 8:48 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Like which rhetoric.

How about replace Nazi with Jew. A lot of the rhetoric is the same. Will help you be more open minded.


Ok, I'll try it.

The fact that people can't even begin to try to challenge their own assumptions is one of the reasons that there is such a divide in this country.

There is value in questioning your political beliefs, one to see where you really stand and two to help you understand those who feel differently from you.

If one can't even conceive that maybe their understanding can be challenged and others can feel differently then there is no hope for engagement in trying to create a more perfect union.

(I will try replacing with nazi and see if it helps me understand your position).

[In terms of which rhetoric, taking all the jobs, untrustworthy, criminals, responsible for all the ills of the country]
Back to top
1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 1 of 4 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> In the News -> Politics

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Arguments you never thought you'll have.... 49 Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:32 pm View last post
I saw this and thought some may be interested 5 Thu, May 30 2019, 8:22 pm View last post
A thought about the geula
by amother
6 Tue, Apr 23 2019, 7:53 pm View last post
by ggdm
S/o vegan guests thread. vaccines and autism- a thought
by amother
3 Thu, Apr 18 2019, 6:00 pm View last post
by nchr
[ Poll ] Another thought experiment--test your tolerance (poll)
by Laiya
9 Thu, Mar 28 2019, 11:39 pm View last post

Jump to: