Eating at restaurants without Hashgacha

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amother

Seagreen

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 2:55 pm

Is there a halachic issue with eating the following foods at places without hashgacha:

1. Raw foods (I.e. cut up fruit, veggies, etc.)
2. Sushi from kosher fish
3. Cooked foods at vegan restaurants if they do not use wine, or non kosher olive oils and no grape juices (these foods shouldn't need to be bishul yisroel)
4. Bread

I eat some of these things when traveling, but am trying to figure out the actual consensus.

simba

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 2:57 pm

The answer isn’t based on consensus. It’s based on Halachic responsa.

And for my famous line: AYLOR!

Israeli_C

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:02 pm

There's no such thing as a consensus in Judaism

thunderstorm

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:12 pm

Just because a restaurant is vegan it doesn't mean it's ok to eat there. Who's checking the rice , grains and vegetables for bugs. Let alone a whole host of other possible issues

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:15 pm

Yes, there are various halachic issues with those (some very serious), but it's way beyond the scope of this site for anyone to pasken for you. Do you have a rabbi you can consult?

rivkam

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:18 pm

I would be worried to go near any cooked food even it's claimed to be vegan. Obviously aylor however if you want tips of how to keep kosher when travelling you could start a thread on that! I'm sure a lot of people here can share their experiences and tips

Rutabaga

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:19 pm

There are definitely problems with some of those and you should AYLOR what you can do.

Offhand, I can think of the following issues:

- non kosher restaurants don't check veggies for bugs to our standards
- the use of knives to cut kosher ingredients that may have been used for real treif ingredients
- bishul akkum
- maras ayin
- non kosher fats used in bread, such as lard

amother

Red

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:20 pm

You cannot know if you are eating kosher if they are also preparing non kosher food!
The knives and dishes are used for trief .... how can the once kosher food still be kosher!
All items have to be certified kosher. Once they are not under a Jews supervision and they are being prepared with non kosher utensils with non kosher food in the kitchen, the food is no longer kosher.
Of course one must only eat in a certified kosher establishment.
A Jewish person can only eat whole fruits and vegetables and drink certified kosher bottled drinks in a non kosher food establishment.

Please speak to an orthodox rabbi before considering ordering from a non kosher restaurant.

Iymnok

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:34 pm

Raw vegetables cut with a ben yomo knife used with Davao charif then on your salad.
They are not as careful with bugs.
You don’t know how clean they are.
Fish needs to be cut with a kosher knife.
The rice needs to be cooked in a kosher pot by a Jew or under supervision.
Again food that is cooked (respectable enough for a state dinner) needs hashgacha and obviously kosher toiveled utensils.
Bread you may be able to eat in some circumstances, but you would need to verify exactly what those are with a reliable Rav.

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:47 pm

Rutabaga wrote:

None of those are issues in vegan restaurants. Perhaps the bugs, but non Jews don’t want to eat bugs either generally.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:48 pm

Just to clarify: I'm interested in a discussion not a psak. Some people have posted some interesting ideas I never considered.

jd1212

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 3:50 pm

Iymnok wrote:

I've learned that the responsibility of tevilas keilim, I believe, actually is the host's responsibility (or in this case restaurant)- so I don't believe this specific issue would be a deal-breaker.

Lesia

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 4:02 pm

We asked our rav who said it’s okay to eat at vegetarian and vegan places. He said to avoid vinegars and unchecked salads.

naturalmom5

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 4:09 pm

amother wrote:

None of those are issues in vegan restaurants. Perhaps the bugs, but non Jews don’t want to eat bugs either generally.

Why is bishul akum not a problem

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 4:11 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Why is bishul akum not a problem

No bishul akum if the food can be eaten raw.

amother

Plum

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 4:15 pm

https://oukosher.org/blog/cons.....sher/

tichellady

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 5:13 pm

There are a range of opinions on this and you might get a different answer depending on your circumstances. People who follow Rabbi abady are more comfortable eating out at non hekshered places and then there are others who wouldn’t eat fruit and veggies cut with a clean knife by a non Jew. So there’s obviously quite a spectrum: Here’s what we have learned when we asked :

1. Fine if not a concern about bugs ( different opinions about whether you can just check yourself or should only eat fruits and veggies for which there aren’t bug issues like apples and cucumbers etc)
2. Raw salmon and tuna are fine, rice may be an issue of bishul akum, some say you need to check the seaweed tell the place you are allergic to other seafood so need a clean knife/board
3. Bishul akum May be an issue.bugs may be an issue. If place is owned by Jew may have issue with food cooked on shabbos/pesach etc. if I were to eat at a vegan place I would stick to things that are for sure not a bishul akum issue like jackfruit, tofu, raw foods etc and avoid foods that are very buggy. Some may say if pots were ever used for non vegan would be an issue
4. Bread is fine if all ingredients are kosher, so obviously no lard. Some would want to make sure oven is only used for bread, others don’t think that’s relevant

amother

Red

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 5:25 pm

amother wrote:

None of those are issues in vegan restaurants. Perhaps the bugs, but non Jews don’t want to eat bugs either generally.

But they do end up eating bugs without realizing.
Since it’s a sin for us we have developed a strong system in checking for microscopic bugs and worms.

samantha87

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 6:00 pm

Going out on a limb - and not amother - I would eat most of those things.

Bread: There is the idea of pas palter which is acceptable. Unless you are in an area where bread is actually made with lard, it should be OK.

Raw fruits, vegetables, and identifiable kosher fish: No issue. These restaurants don't want to serve infested foods any more than we do. If you don't see bugs, don't assume they are there.

Salad dressing: wine vinegar would be an issue, and bacon bits too (obviously not in a vegan place).

Vegan food, cooked: Not bishul akum, so OK if no wine.

Cooked rice: Could be bishul akum.

In Israel everything could be tevel.

simba

Thu, Mar 28 2019, 6:02 pm

Lesia wrote:

We asked our rav who said it’s okay to eat at vegetarian and vegan places. He said to avoid vinegars and unchecked salads.

What about eggs at a vegetarian place? Is it a problem that they don’t get checked?

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