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-> Children's Health
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amother
Sapphire
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 Fri, Apr 05 2019, 7:50 am
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Wait...are you saying you would purposely expose your children to measles?
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amother
Floralwhite
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 8:47 am
| amother wrote: | | Wait...are you saying you would purposely expose your children to measles? |
I personally would not, because I'd be too nervous about accidentally transmitting it to others at higher risk, but I would do so for chicken pox.
But you can't have it both ways. Either you feel that measles is benign in a childhood population and don't mind your kids getting it (so have them get it), or you feel that measles is too high a risk, and then must accept the smaller risk of vaccination.
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amother
Sapphire
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 8:50 am
I feel sorry for any kids whose parents (even if well intentioned) deliberately expose them to what is certainly not a benign disease
can only imagine what would happen if a parent did that and the child suffered one of the potentially permanent dangerous side effects like infertility or deafness.
how the parent would feel and the child later when s/he realized cvs R"L.
and yes as mentioned it could also expose others
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amother
Silver
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 8:57 am
| amother wrote: | I personally would not, because I'd be too nervous about accidentally transmitting it to others at higher risk, but I would do so for chicken pox.
But you can't have it both ways. Either you feel that measles is benign in a childhood population and don't mind your kids getting it (so have them get it), or you feel that measles is too high a risk, and then must accept the smaller risk of vaccination. |
Seems fairly evident that measles can't be contained without vaccination (in communities with low vaccination rates, measles spreads when introduced. We see that now). Measles causes serious consequences for 1/1000, therefore for the good of the whole - the community vaccinates.
That's why the laws really don't allow for individual choice in this matter. There are limits on personal liberty, even in 2019.
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amother
Amethyst
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 9:00 am
| amother wrote: | I feel sorry for any kids whose parents (even if well intentioned) deliberately expose them to what is certainly not a benign disease
can only imagine what would happen if a parent did that and the child suffered one of the potentially permanent dangerous side effects like infertility or deafness.
how the parent would feel and the child later when s/he realized cvs R"L. |
Ditto for vaccines.
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amother
Sapphire
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 9:03 am
there is something called a risk/benefit analysis
equating provable statistics which are highly disparate promotes a fallacy
completely different scenarios
Yiddishkeit is not Christian Science B"H
all the rebbeim have come out strongly in favor of vaccinating
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amother
Silver
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 9:09 am
| amother wrote: | | Ditto for vaccines. |
Fairly certain as Jews we are meant to follow the majority opinion when it comes to making choices on how to be / how to act.
Am I wrong on that?
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amother
Floralwhite
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 12:05 pm
| amother wrote: | Seems fairly evident that measles can't be contained without vaccination (in communities with low vaccination rates, measles spreads when introduced. We see that now). Measles causes serious consequences for 1/1000, therefore for the good of the whole - the community vaccinates.
That's why the laws really don't allow for individual choice in this matter. There are limits on personal liberty, even in 2019. |
The correct number is 1/10,00, which changes the equation for many absent an outbreak.
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amother
Silver
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 12:08 pm
| amother wrote: | | The correct number is 1/10,00, which changes the equation for many absent an outbreak. |
Except there is no equation - because there is no true choice. And I'll go with the stats from here
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab......html
We don't do vaccination because "our child" may be the 1/1000. We do it because if there is no vaccination the community suffers.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 12:14 pm
| amother wrote: | I feel sorry for any kids whose parents (even if well intentioned) deliberately expose them to what is certainly not a benign disease
can only imagine what would happen if a parent did that and the child suffered one of the potentially permanent dangerous side effects like infertility or deafness.
how the parent would feel and the child later when s/he realized cvs R"L.
and yes as mentioned it could also expose others |
Measles does not cause infertility. Mumps can. Facts please.
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amother
Floralwhite
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 12:39 pm
| amother wrote: | Except there is no equation - because there is no true choice. And I'll go with the stats from here
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab......html
We don't do vaccination because "our child" may be the 1/1000. We do it because if there is no vaccination the community suffers. |
The CDC contradicts itself.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab......html
"In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles."
400 out of 4 million = 1/10,000.
Death rate went up by a factor of 10 with all of the medical advances of the past 50 years?
And we vaccinate for most diseases for our child, and our child only. There is no herd immunity for pertussis, for example. Even with measles, there is no harm to you if MY child gets measles, only if we pass it around by not staying home with sick children.
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amother
Silver
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 12:54 pm
| amother wrote: | The CDC contradicts itself.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab......html
"In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles."
400 out of 4 million = 1/10,000.
Death rate went up by a factor of 10 with all of the medical advances of the past 50 years?
And we vaccinate for most diseases for our child, and our child only. There is no herd immunity for pertussis, for example. Even with measles, there is no harm to you if MY child gets measles, only if we pass it around by not staying home with sick children. |
1/1000 had encephalitis.
Your child got measles because someone passed it around by not staying home when they were sick.
That same sick person passed it around to a bunch of other children too - including my child.
Given that most children had measles at some point before vaccination - seems reasonable to me that its hard to contain.
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amother
Floralwhite
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 12:59 pm
| amother wrote: | 1/1000 had encephalitis.
Your child got measles because someone passed it around by not staying home when they were sick.
That same sick person passed it around to a bunch of other children too - including my child.
Given that most children had measles at some point before vaccination - seems reasonable to me that its hard to contain. |
There was no attempt to contain it prior to vaccination. It was seen, as chicken pox, as a disease mostly benign in the childhood population, and one worth getting therefore as a child. It is much more serious in an adult - the same reason I will vaccinate my children for chicken pox if they don't get the wild disease before they are teenagers.
Maybe check your calculations for encephalitis. According to the data I quoted from the CDC, 1/4,000 had encephalitis, and those cases were not fatal (or the death rate would have been twice as high or more).
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amother
Silver
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 1:46 pm
| amother wrote: | There was no attempt to contain it prior to vaccination. It was seen, as chicken pox, as a disease mostly benign in the childhood population, and one worth getting therefore as a child. It is much more serious in an adult - the same reason I will vaccinate my children for chicken pox if they don't get the wild disease before they are teenagers.
Maybe check your calculations for encephalitis. According to the data I quoted from the CDC, 1/4,000 had encephalitis, and those cases were not fatal (or the death rate would have been twice as high or more). |
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/do.....t.pdf
Estimated 3-4 Million had measles. 500,000 reported. 1,000 of those reported had encephalitis. That's actually 2/1000.
I wasn't permitted in school when I had chicken pox.
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amother
Sapphire
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 1:49 pm
some people went deaf from having measles
right potential infertility side effect is covered from taking the MMR
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hotzenplotz
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 2:09 pm
| amother wrote: | [IMHO, the right way to convince someone of something is not to ignore their concerns, put massive societal pressure, or scream at them.]
In that vein, I am sharing some information on ways to minimize side effects of vaccination, especially as regards the MMR.
Although measles is arguably the most effective vaccine, and the most contagious wild virus, it is also the vaccine linked to the most negative side effects - and I am not referring to autism diagnoses.
This leaves families in an area of outbreak only two responsible choices: Either rely on the fact that measles in a healthy child is rarely dangerous and deliberately expose them to measles, and place yourselves in quarantine until the measles is no longer contagious; or accept the MMR.
For those who feel that the latter is more palatable, there is a way to significantly lower the chances of negative repercussions from the vaccine.
Vitamin C, especially in the sodium ascorbate form, is well-known by natural-minded families for its incredible immune-system boosting capabilities. (Incidentally, as per the CRC, plain sodium ascorbate is acceptable without a hechsher.) If you take sufficient amounts of it during a cold, for example, you may notice that while your body has enough, symptoms disappear!
Your tolerance for Vitamin C increases dramatically as the body is stressed. Vaccination is obviously a very stressful event for the body. By preparing the body by dosing until tolerance level prior to and following the vaccine, the body's ability to rid itself of the toxins effectively is magnified.
("Tolerance" is defined as the beginnings of bowel involvement, like gas. Continuing to dose beyond this point will cause diarrhea for the body to rid itself of excess vitamin C, which is obviously not what you want!)
By trying it, you will notice that while a child might usually reach tolerance level after a quarter teaspoon of sodium ascorbate, after vaccination they might be able to tolerate twice that amount or more!
The doses should be spaced out, as the body uses up Vitamin C pretty quickly, as it is a water soluble vitamin.
Some also recommend using Vitamin A around the time of the MMR, which is also a good idea, and increases the likelihood of the measles part of the vaccine being effective.
(Here is a great article about this: http://orthomolecular.org/reso.....shtml)
May we all be blessed with good health for ourselves and our families, and for Klal Yisrael! |
Although vaccinations are a wonderful thing, I do not believe they are risk free.
It does have effects on children who struggle with fatigue, low muscle tone, irritable bowel syndrome and attentin deficit disorder. A good way to minimize the effects is to give the child N ACETYLCYSTEINE which is an amino acid for probably about a month.
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amother
Amethyst
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 2:14 pm
| amother wrote: | Fairly certain as Jews we are meant to follow the majority opinion when it comes to making choices on how to be / how to act.
Am I wrong on that? |
You are wrong because then we'd all need to be Christians. (Or Muslims by now.)
And the halacha of acharai rabbim l'hatos applies to bais din hagadol only.
In fact, as Jews, there are very often times we need to be different and take pride in that. Ours is not a sheeple religion.
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amother
Silver
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 2:52 pm
| amother wrote: | You are wrong because then we'd all need to be Christians. (Or Muslims by now.)
And the halacha of acharai rabbim l'hatos applies to bais din hagadol only.
In fact, as Jews, there are very often times we need to be different and take pride in that. Ours is not a sheeple religion. |
I don't understand your comment about Christians or Muslims.
I could be wrong - I know there are some letters where Rabbiem permit people not to vaccinate - but I don't think there are any who say 'you should not vaccinate' as a blanket statement.
So if I'm following my local health guidelines, and my Rav - and then my child has a reaction from a vaccine - I would be upset - but I would also not beat myself up about it.
If I give my kid a disease intentionally - which is not recommended by most people - yah I would be feeling rather guilty about it.
That's the difference.
(the response to this is of course that we all need to make decisions for ourselves after we all do 'our own research' and relying on authority to tell us what 'the right thing to do' is never an excuse. Authority should not be trusted).
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amother
Amethyst
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Fri, Apr 05 2019, 3:12 pm
| amother wrote: | I don't understand your comment about Christians or Muslims.
I could be wrong - I know there are some letters where Rabbiem permit people not to vaccinate - but I don't think there are any who say 'you should not vaccinate' as a blanket statement.
So if I'm following my local health guidelines, and my Rav - and then my child has a reaction from a vaccine - I would be upset - but I would also not beat myself up about it.
If I give my kid a disease intentionally - which is not recommended by most people - yah I would be feeling rather guilty about it.
That's the difference.
(the response to this is of course that we all need to make decisions for ourselves after we all do 'our own research' and relying on authority to tell us what 'the right thing to do' is never an excuse. Authority should not be trusted). |
My comment about Christians or Muslims was tongue in cheek. You said as Jews we follow majority. Majority of the world practices a different religion than us, so to make a blanket statement about following the majority is misplaced. The context of following majority is as I wrote: for beis din hagadol in the times of mishkan/beis hamikdash. Today's days each person has only his own Rav to follow. Majority doesn't come into play.
The rest of your post is your personal feeling about the matter. Yet, I hope you can respect those who would feel differently regarding the health decisions they make for their child (especially after witnessing vaccine adverse reactions).
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amother
Floralwhite
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Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:04 am
| amother wrote: | https://www.cdc.gov/measles/downloads/measlesdataandstatsslideset.pdf
Estimated 3-4 Million had measles. 500,000 reported. 1,000 of those reported had encephalitis. That's actually 2/1000.
I wasn't permitted in school when I had chicken pox. |
Please check your math. 1,000 out of 4 million = 1/4,000 had encephalitis.
I wasn't permitted in school when I had chicken pox either, and I don't know anyone who thinks you should be permitted in school with the measles.
But I was happy when my kids got chicken pox (from a friend who developed it from the vaccine, interestingly enough).
For some number comparisons, in America H1N1 (swine flu) had about 59 million cases, of which "only" 12,000 died = about 1 in 5,000. The epidemic was said to be "mild" as per the CDC and WHO.
Last year's flu (2017-2018) had about 49 million cases, of which 80,000 died as per the CDC (including 180 children). That means 1 out of 612 cases (!).
So even according to the CDC, the flu is nearly twice as deadly as measles. But for some reason, only measles drives everybody crazy.
(Again, I do strongly recommend getting the MMR, unless you have actual plans to ensure that your child gets measles as a childhood disease.)
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