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What should I do?
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amother
Blue


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:16 pm
WhatFor wrote:
I'm quite familiar with yeshivish circles and OP is right that in very yeshivish circles, you'd rarely have a single man and woman sleeping in the same house as presented. However, I can't imagine the same people who hold like that setting up an arrangement where you'd rent a place to have a bunch of young couples sleeping together in the same house, even if one party from each couple is related. You still have a bunch of married men and women sleeping in a house with people they're not related to, which is technically more problematic (and can lead to far graver issues) than two single people in a house together. You have married men and women waking up and sharing bathrooms, etc. Some yeshivish people might, but that would be more left-wing yeshivish.

I have a feeling that the answer to the ask a Rav thing, if they are THAT yeshivish, is that a Rav would not be happy with that arrangement, period.

This whole situation makes me think that not everyone in this family is THAT yeshivish, and that OP is pulling the frumkeit card out when one aspect of this bothers her for personal reasons.

Your SIL's sister is as family to your brother as SIL is to you. She already made the invite, presumably because not everyone in this group is yeshivish. I don't think it would be in your best interest long-term to disinvite her. If this is such an issue for you, try to find a nearby Airbnb and say your family wants more privacy. You want to be chumradik on single women (but not married women), great, but imo don't make other people suffer for your frumkeit.


I'm very yeshivish and OP's situation would be very uncomfortable. Yet, we would definitely rent a house together with a few of our siblings, I'm not sure how you're correlating the two. It's not a bunch of young couples where only one party is related, they are all married into the same family.

I also don't understand your point about sharing bathrooms. I'm spending Pesach by my ils and I'll be sharing a bathroom that my bil will also be using, but that's life.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:21 pm
amother wrote:
I'm very yeshivish and OP's situation would be very uncomfortable. Yet, we would definitely rent a house together with a few of our siblings, I'm not sure how you're correlating the two. It's not a bunch of young couples where only one party is related, they are all married into the same family.


While they're all married into the same family, the relationship between Brother 1's wife and Sister 2's husband is somewhat attenuated.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:23 pm
amother wrote:
I'm very yeshivish and OP's situation would be very uncomfortable. Yet, we would definitely rent a house together with a few of our siblings, I'm not sure how you're correlating the two. It's not a bunch of young couples where only one party is related, they are all married into the same family.


Try as I might I just can't understand.
There is related by blood, and there is related by marriage.
This girl is related by blood, to someone who is related by marriage. They are all related.
Are you guys really so chummy and comfortable with your BILs as your brothers?
It's inconceivable to me. You're just treating her differently because she is single. Nothing to do with degree of relatedness! So I don't get with the SILs are okay with single BILs, but not the other way around????
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:26 pm
Aylat wrote:
I'm more from the 'your family is my family' culture. Sister's MIL is in town the week of our bat mitzvah - yes, we'd love it if she would come too! BIL's brother is visiting from abroad - of course he is included in their Shabbat invitation!

I'm really trying to understand the problem here, but I'm not getting it. There are a bunch of women and men who are not related to each other except by marriage. What difference does one extra woman (unmarried) make. I keep the same gedarim with my single BIL and with my married BIL. The single sister can hang out with the women, and the single guy with his brothers.

I am also of the 'your family is my family' mindset. I am very close with several of my siblings' spouse's families. We had all kinds of in law's-in law's at my wedding. We're all family!
I don't understand any of OP's concerns except that many people made the arrangements together and one person invited someone without consulting the others.
If the SIL agrees to share a room with kids I don't see a problem.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:29 pm
essie14 wrote:
I don't understand any of OP's concerns except that many people made the arrangements together and one person invited someone without consulting the others.
If the SIL agrees to share a room with kids I don't see a problem.


I see no reason why she wouldn't agree, or why that would be weird at all.
She is joining late to this event that was already planned without her, I'm sure she would just be grateful for a bed and to be included in the event.
But OP is worried about making her BIL and husband uncomfortable???
I can't wait for page 17 when OP will admit the real reason why she doesn't want her there!
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:39 pm
Urban gypsy and everyone else, please stop bashing OP and making her out to be the worst person! She is fully entitled to be upset and she does not need to explain all details. She's not doing anything wrong, the sister n law is wrong for inviting her sister without anyone's consent, OP is doing nothing wrong by being upset and not wanting the sister to join their family time. I think most people will be upset if someone unexpectedly imposes their family time that they were looking forward to. This does not make us bad people.
If you don't agree with OP, either say it in a nice way and share good options if you have, or stop following this thread. There's no reason for OP to be bashed.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:45 pm
singleagain wrote:
This only speaks to the general 50% divorce rate. Not how the couple met...I don't understand how someone can be forced into marriage, in any case. But that is a topic for another thread.


There's no 50% divorce rate in my community. It's about 10% for the orthodox world. .in my circles, it's lower.

https://www.jewishlinknj.com/f.....unity

They are forced into marriage the usual way - family pressures.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:48 pm
zaq wrote:
Maybe she’ll even mainline heroin or snort cocaine right at the table! (No problem as long as it’s the pure stuff and hasn’t been adulterated with flour.)

That would be impolite unless she brings enough for everyone.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:49 pm
I think what is bothering most of the posters is that she is not making sense.
Anyone who posts a thread with a question and omits relevant details is going to get unflattering and unhelpful responses.
I agree that SIL who invited sister without asking was extremely wrong.
And I also agree that OP did nothing wrong.
However, why not just say, I make all this effort to plan this vacation, SIL is inviting someone who will be very out of place in our group without permission, and there is absolutely no space for her to sleep? That would make sense!
Instead OP refuses to ask DH, BIL, or SIL to handle it, refuses to ask a Rav, and is casting unfair aspersions on this single girl and is wracked by irrational fears about her husband.
As they say, **** or get off the pot!
Either tell us why you really don't want her there or stop making up excuse after excuse!
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:50 pm
Squishy wrote:
They are forced into marriage the usual way - family pressures.


What on earth is the relevance of this to our discussion?
Did the family pressure them to marry each other because they slept under the same roof?
If so, why?
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:50 pm
Urban gypsy, this still does not give you an excuse to make fun of a person. If it bothers you so much, leave the thread.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 2:53 pm
amother wrote:
Urban gypsy, this still does not give you an excuse to make fun of a person. If it bothers you so much, leave the thread.


I just went back through my posts to double check but... where did I say anything that could be construed as making fun of OP??? Saying someone doesn't make sense, is omitting details does not mean making fun!
In case you missed it, the laughing emoji was directed at a joke made by another poster
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:03 pm
imasoftov wrote:
That would be impolite unless she brings enough for everyone.


No, no - for sederaim its understood that you BYOB, BYOM and BYOC.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:05 pm
Urban gypsy, your posts are not written in a nice way at all.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:08 pm
OP,
This thread is honestly going in circles. You have many ppl who validated your concern and agree it’s a serious hashkafic issue. Others see no issue at all, which makes sense, there are many hashkofos in Yiddishkeit. What matters is that YOU knowing your standards and family dynamics don’t feel comfortable. So instead of hoping someone else will be upset and do the dirty work, or feeling resentful, just pick up the phone and call a rov!! You are the one who did all /most of the organizing, therefore it makes sense for you to deal with this as well. Get some clarity & then you can decide the best way to move forward.

Describe your family, the house, etc. Maybe the rov will say in this case bec of her needs, if xyz is done it can be okay. And then xyz will need to be communicated to everyone. Or maybe the rov will tell you it’s not ok. And then it’s not you. It’s we’re frum yidden & we follow what our rov says.

Just call!!!
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:13 pm
sequoia wrote:
Forced shidduchim? Is that a thing?


In Regency romances, yes.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:14 pm
amother wrote:
In Regency romances, yes.


And I'm pretty sure that unmarried people slept over at other people's houses all the time even then!
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:17 pm
I just can’t imagine how it would work.

“Hey Chanie, you were alone with Shloimie for .5 seconds in the kitchen. You must now get married.”

What well-meaning parent would say that?
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:19 pm
amother wrote:
OP,
just pick up the phone and call a rov!! You are the one who did all /most of the organizing, therefore it makes sense for you to deal with this as well. Get some clarity & then you can decide the best way to move forward.

Describe your family, the house, etc. Maybe the rov will say in this case bec of her needs, if xyz is done it can be okay. And then xyz will need to be communicated to everyone. Or maybe the rov will tell you it’s not ok. And then it’s not you. It’s we’re frum yidden & we follow what our rov says.

Just call!!!


It could backfire. Does everyone there hold by the same rav? What if the rav says it's not ok, and some of the couples say they don't care, they hold by different rabbanim?
What if the SIL who invited gets angry that a rav was called at all?

It could definitely cause even more hard feelings. It's like trying to strong-arm everyone into getting rid of the single guest. Let's be honest here, the op didn't even mention halacha. It was more of a sensitivity issue. This is something that needs to be ironed out among them, not have a third person (rav) brought into the picture, unless everyone agrees upon it.

And if the rav says it's ok, then the op will be fine with it? Or would she just call a rav to force the SIL to un-invite her sister?
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Apr 02 2019, 3:25 pm
amother wrote:
OP,
This thread is honestly going in circles. You have many ppl who validated your concern and agree it’s a serious hashkafic issue. Others see no issue at all, which makes sense, there are many hashkofos in Yiddishkeit. What matters is that YOU knowing your standards and family dynamics don’t feel comfortable. So instead of hoping someone else will be upset and do the dirty work, or feeling resentful, just pick up the phone and call a rov!! You are the one who did all /most of the organizing, therefore it makes sense for you to deal with this as well. Get some clarity & then you can decide the best way to move forward.

Describe your family, the house, etc. Maybe the rov will say in this case bec of her needs, if xyz is done it can be okay. And then xyz will need to be communicated to everyone. Or maybe the rov will tell you it’s not ok. And then it’s not you. It’s we’re frum yidden & we follow what our rov says.

Just call!!!


OP actually hasn't been here in some time. We are all going around in circles all by ourselves.
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