What should I do? | Imamother

sarahmalka

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 8:43 pm

Yeah I came back to add that I feel I was too harsh in my response. One of my least favorite things about imamother is how ladies can jump down each other's throats and I'm sorry if I did that, OP. I was reacting defensively as if this was specifically about her being more modern as you worded it, but as I considered what you wrote I can see what a bummer it would be to share a house with an outside family member.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 8:46 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Why does she feel the men can't be trusted around a single woman, even with all the other family around at all times? IMHO, the insecurity is a much bigger issue.

Either the men in the family turn into raving animals after a glass of wine or two - or they are perfect gentlemen and nothing is going to happen. Unless you think that a glass of wine is going to turn this girl into a brazen hussy. If you think that is the girl's character, then she's better off eating somewhere else.

I'm touchy about this, because I've been that "single *divorced!* girl", and I've had plenty of wine at dinners, and I have never even so much as looked at another man at the table. I've also never had any men get inappropriate with me.

If find all of this "what if THIS happens" speculating to be very hurtful. Aren't we supposed to judge each other favorably?

I’m sorry if I hurt you. Actually I come from a more modern background and tend to not be judgmental. I have seen her drunk, I guess it would depend what you would call uncomfortable or inappropriate but I know that’s how I felt previously. 4 cups of dry red wine on an empty stomach definitely makes me woozy.

tichellady

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 8:49 pm

trixx wrote:

Am I the only person understanding op?

There is a house full of related men.

A non related, single female has been invited along without anyone's consent.

Even if there is adequate sleeping arrangements, this is very uncomfortable for the duration of yom Tov, during which families want to be together, hang out, let loose etc.

And btw this would still be socially off if the single female was a married male or a single male or anyone other than immediate family.

Nothing to do with getting drunk. In circles where genders do not socially mix, this isn't exactly normal, and no op's family does not have to be the trendsetters here to buck that.

I'm not sure what role you play here and if you can even say or do anything. If someone else is doing the arrangements/hosting/renting, op might have to just suck it up.

I understood it as a mix of siblings and in laws. So I don’t see why the single brother in law isn’t an issue but the single sister in law is, or why the married sister in law isn’t an issue. Either people mix with non blood relatives or they don’t. Either people know how to behave in close quarters with people who are not their siblings but are “ family” , whether single or married. To me a sister in law’s sister falls in the “ family” category. I understand she’s not everyone’s sister but neither is the brother everyone’s brother

I understand why the op is frustrated that the plans changed and she wasn’t asked. That is annoying. She could talk about it with her sister in law but I’m not sure how that can be done tactfully and if anyone will change. That depends on their relationship probably

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 8:51 pm

Franticfrummie, this has zero zilch to do with trusting men around a single girl. It does not make sense nor is it appropriate for a single non relative girl to join a bunch of brother's spending yom tov together. It's not appropriate for them to sot and shmooze and spend casual time together. She does not belong there, it's not her family.
Besides, sister n law has no right to bring along a guest without asking first if everyone is ok with it.

causemommysaid

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 8:54 pm

amother wrote:

It didnt sound like that was what the OP had a problem with. The single bil seemed to be the issue.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 8:56 pm

Wow - I really feel for the young lady who wants to spend Pesach with her sister - but is shut out because she is not family. I'm not particularly close with my brothers wifes' siblings.. but they are part of my extended family.

(the young lady is a SIL to one of Dh's brothers).

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:04 pm

trixx wrote:

Am I the only person understanding op?

There is a house full of related men.

A non related, single female has been invited along without anyone's consent.

Even if there is adequate sleeping arrangements, this is very uncomfortable for the duration of yom Tov, during which families want to be together, hang out, let loose etc.

Nothing to do with getting drunk. In circles where genders do not socially mix, this isn't exactly normal, and no op's family does not have to be the trendsetters here to buck that.

And btw this would still be socially off if the single female was a married male or a single male or anyone other than immediate family. Not sure why they would want to join, either.

I'm not sure what role you play here and if you can even say or do anything. If someone else is doing the arrangements/hosting/renting, op might have to just suck it up.

Thanks. I’m doing the arranging:/ but we are one of the younger siblings and no one is asking us.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Coffee

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:09 pm

Perhaps single BIL, if he himself feels uncomfortable, should talk to his brother (SIL’s husband) directly. That would be more appropriate.

My guess is this single sister is pretty desperate for a place to go, most socially normal people would not seek out this arrangement for themselves as their first choice. It will be awkward for her more than anyone else.

dancingqueen

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:17 pm

trixx wrote:

Am I the only person understanding op?

There is a house full of related men.

A non related, single female has been invited along without anyone's consent.

Even if there is adequate sleeping arrangements, this is very uncomfortable for the duration of yom Tov, during which families want to be together, hang out, let loose etc.

Nothing to do with getting drunk. In circles where genders do not socially mix, this isn't exactly normal, and no op's family does not have to be the trendsetters here to buck that.

And btw this would still be socially off if the single female was a married male or a single male or anyone other than immediate family. Not sure why they would want to join, either.

I'm not sure what role you play here and if you can even say or do anything. If someone else is doing the arrangements/hosting/renting, op might have to just suck it up.

It’s the sister of a SIL which is hardly some rando girl.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:18 pm

amother wrote:

My guess is this single sister is pretty desperate for a place to go, most socially normal people would not seek out this arrangement for themselves as their first choice. It will be awkward for her more than anyone else.

I agree. Why would a single girl want to tag along with her sister's extended family and be the only outsider there, if not for no other option?

As FF posted earlier - we begin with the Haggadah with "Kol dichfin yeisei v’yeichol, kol ditzrich yeisei v’yifsach". To me this fits this situation perfectly. I don't see any exclusions for uncomfortability or awkwardness. There is someone in need here, and there's a group of adults in the picture who should rise to the occasion.

Have a quick conversation with said SIL how best to avoid any unpleasant situation and move on. I don't see a justification for disinviting and hurting a young, vulnerable girl.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

As a BT, when I was single I felt like that awkward unwanted female guest mamy times until I found an incredible family who "took me in". Obviously I was the bomb walking in, why else would I have to call 10 families to get a "yes" for a YT seuda? My first Pesach in NY I had nowhere to go, so I worked as a babysitter in a hotel. I won't begin to share those horrors here.

OP should think long and hard about, what if the single sister has no other good options. Is her presence going to be that awful for you?

I think the men need to chat amongst themselves anyways. Honestly, in my circles it isn't acceptable to "let loose" or chat up your married SIL either. So I guess what real difference does it make?

amother

Apricot

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks. I’m doing the arranging:/ but we are one of the younger siblings and no one is asking us.

How is the money being split?

Also is there a room for the single sister of the sil?

Is this inconveniencing anyone?

Also, will the others now feel free to invite their own guests?

How will you deal with

amother

Smokey

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:38 pm

It is not fair to the rest of the family for this sil to just decide to invite her sister without asking first if it would be ok. I agree with you it wouldn’t make for a comfortable atmosphere with a single girl who’s not related to any of the men sitting around. Someone needs to be straight and communicate clearly with the sister in law that this isn’t a good time (invite her for shavous meals?)

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:39 pm

Sorry I didn’t have a chance to respond to everyone. I know she doesn’t want to be at her home and I do feel bad for her but I don’t believe this is her only option. I think she can go to her friends but I don’t know because we were not consulted. I don’t want to approach sil if there’s nothing I can do to change the situation. I’m mad and hurt Sad

I put work into this plus a lot more work and traveling with kids coming up but I don’t know how I can convince myself to look forward to yom tov, where as before I really was excited.

Can I speak to other sister in law to try and plan? Or will that just backfire and turn into gossip. I wish dh would feel the same way I do...

ETA: thank you for your responses. I’m starting to feel more thought out on the topic.

amother

Burlywood

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:41 pm

I'm MO from a background and coed school and I completely understand op. A number of related married couples are renting a house together and it is weird to also have 2 floating single people.

I don't even see it as a yeshivish thing. It just doesn't fit, and ruins the comfort level.

amother

Mauve

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:43 pm

your "'mad" and "hurt" is very excessively dramatic. I get that maybe uts a let down. btw you dont sound like you "feel very bad" for this poor sister who probably was very desperate to get away for whatever reason. surely she did not anticipate how unwelcome she is. you are fortunate that you are a giver not a taker and try to open your heart. you dont need to be excited but honestly this whole post stinks of bad middos. cant you be less rigid and "forgive" and welcome and look at this as a real life opportunity to work on your middos and chessed?

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 9:46 pm

amother wrote:

Wow. That sounds like it was tough!
It’s different because all the marrieds already don’t interact with others spouses but I believe she would.