Raising Decent Kids

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 12:07 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

I wondered why her husband couldn’t just learn for one night at the kitchen table at home?

This is why teachers in HS are too immature in their own marriages to teach lessons about marriage. Perhaps they're all still young and idealistic, but it is to the detriment of the girls.

The message should be that in marriage, this issue and any tough decision would be discussed between dw and dh, regardless of the outcome of the decision.

I believe this ties into the challenge of raising good kids. We are not communicating with spouses, so how can I believe we are communicating with our kids? Does everyone understand what to do in life by osmosis?

Rappel

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 4:43 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I haven’t heard that saying. I live on a yeshivish ‘older’ neighborhood in Lakewood where derech eretz is important to almost all the families.
At a Shul simcha boys must wait to sit until all adults are sitting. Wait to take food.
They go in groups before Shabbos to shul to sweep, vacuum, put on tablecloth.
Boys help neighbors shovel walk, carry in grocery, clean car for pesach, now grass of single or older neighbors for no money.
When my boys are bored they bake or cook or clean. They know every night before pesach they have a job before going to sleep. They also babysit and watch younger siblings if needed. And neighborhood families are the same.

Don’t get me wrong they still play ball. Ride bikes. Build club houses and make messes. And get into tons of trouble. But at the end of the day they are responsible for the equipment and messes and have to put things back how they were
Personally I also work on empathy. In some ways my kids have more then the neighbor. We discuss not discussing trips or gifts or events (which aren’t big at all just more then others) so that no one feels bad. And being excited when others have less or more exciting news. The kids pick it up quickly.

At the end of the day I can only daven they grow up to be a mntch and emulate the fathers they are.

Sounds idyllic, magenta. I want to raise my boys like that. Kol HaKavod!

Rappel

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 4:44 am

I'm following this thread to see what I need to know. Please keep commenting, experienced mommas.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 4:56 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Not anymore. Most women work.

Women go through a lot! Pregnancy, childbirth, nursing etc.

Men and women both have their things. Silly to compare.

Women work, but they want to be married to a man they view as successful.

If they want a working boy, they want someone who at least earns more than they do. If they want a learner, they want a top learner.

Getting to the top learner status, or into jobs that earn a lot, isn't easy.

DVOM

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 6:38 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Um, no.

I want (and have, thank god) a man who works hard, who is honest, who is responsible, who is passionate about and finds joy in what he does, who has his priorities strait. I don't measure success by the amount earned or 'top' status.

Top status, for me, is a man who listens, who puts his family first, who considers others feelings, who works hard. My husband earns nothing (yet!) and my respect for him is immeasurable. He is not a 'top learner' or 'top student' by any measure, but he learns musar and halacha every morning (from 5:00 am to 8:00!!!), goes to school all day, still prioritizes time and emotional energy to talk to our kids each evening, and set up breakfast in bed for me each morning. On shabbos afternoons I am put to bed; he spends the day playing lego and soccer.

There is so much more to a man than how much money he makes, how well he learns.

Amalia

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 6:57 am

DVOM wrote:

I could not agree more.

And about the last line, becoming a good learner and (not “or”!) a good earner is not easy, true, but it’s worth nothing at all, in this world or the next, if a man is a pig. Or behaves like one because he was never taught how to be a menthch with derech eretz and good middos.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 8:38 am

Rappel wrote:

Sounds idyllic, magenta. I want to raise my boys like that. Kol HaKavod!

It is a great neighborhood to raise kids. Which is why we don’t move even though we need much bigger and can’t build. I wish it could be cloned.

amother

Green

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 10:22 am

Nah those high school teachers were all married w loads of kids not sem girls.

ShishKabob

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 11:38 am

I agree about the entitlement that the boys are raised with in todays society in general.

My boys are enlisted with household chores just to get them used to the fact that they need to contribute also. It's not just a girls thing.
They also help with putting the kids to sleep, dressing them, diapering them, washing dishes, clearing the table, taking out the garbage.
They also are involved in soothing their siblings when they get hurt and hugging them to comfort them.
And when they lose their temper, like many of us humans, they are told and explained that they need to learn to deal with their anger without yelling or screaming and so on. They can go for a walk or lift weights to let out the steam.
And when they speak disrespectfully, they know that they have to apologize.

Guess what? the same rules apply to their female counterparts in my family.

However, I honestly don't see where the learning bashing comes into the picture.
We women get a tremendous amount of schar if we enable our dh's to learn in peace. Whether it's for an hour a day or a 15 minute shiur, or an entire day.

For some women that want the extra schar, they will give up more so that they can earn more.
Just like l'havdil if you have a top position in a company and you get compensated more if you put in more hours or more effort.
And women don't get any less schar than the dh. Not in my religion. No way!

IMO the way to raise decent kids, is to try to be decent ourselves and be a role model, and DAVEN DAVEN DAVEN.

We ima's rock! I'll meet you in Gan Eden after 120! B'hatzlocha

forgetit

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 11:45 am

ShishKabob wrote:

[b]I agree about the entitlement that the boys are raised with in todays society in general.[/b]

I don't know. My girls feel pretty entitled too if I don't enlighten them. Sad

amother

Pearl

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 11:47 am

ShishKabob wrote:

I agree about the entitlement that the boys are raised with in todays society in general.

However, I honestly don't see where the learning bashing comes into the picture.
We women get a tremendous amount of schar if we enable our dh's to learn in peace. Whether it's for an hour a day or a 15 minute shiur, or an entire day.

For some women that want the extra schar, they will give up more so that they can earn more.
Just like l'havdil if you have a top position in a company and you get compensated more if you put in more hours or more effort.
And women don't get any less schar than the dh. Not in my religion. No way!

Thank you for saying this. I was disturbed by the bashing but couldn't figure out how to say it right. You presented it very well.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 12:00 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

Boys need to be taught empathy, just as girls are. Of course, there are personality disorders, for which a parent is not to blame. But I am betting that half of these guys don’t have a disorder and simply think that they are the king of their home and should be served day and night by doting women because that is what they are used to.

I'm struggling to agree with the bolded. I guess my MIL isn't to blame for DH's issues, but she sure could've warned me before I married him, she KNEW and just figured that marriage would cure him somehow.

I don't feel like posting all the issues I deal with in my marriage, but just wanted to state the above.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 12:06 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Also, there is definitely an environmental component to mental health, so in many cases, dysfunctional parenting does lead to personality disorders and other issues. I still don't think blame is the right approach. It's sad that generation after generation perpetuates cycles of dysfunction instead of gaining tools in time to raise the next generation better than the last.

ShishKabob

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 12:09 pm

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

This! I think that this generation has the best tools available to help ourselves get out of any unhealthy cycle that we are caught in. The blame game doesn't produce better functioning adults.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 12:25 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Nah those high school teachers were all married w loads of kids not sem girls.

Age is irrelevant. You can be immature in your relationship at 67.
All the more reason parents need to set the example and communicate with their kids. That will counteract and nullify lots of bad information and negative behaviors or world views kids are exposed to.

amother

Aqua

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 12:51 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

As a mom of boys, I hate this question.

I plan to teach my boys good middos. But boys and girls are different with different needs. In our community, boys need to either earn a lot of money or be top learners to do well in life.

Girls can get married and expect to be taken care of financially. And often they do. But boys have to be outstanding to be successful. They have a lot more stress. It's very different.

There are plenty of bad wives who are selfish and don't take care of their family, expecting their husbands to finance their shopping trips and babysitting and cleaning help. And on the parallel website abbafather.com you can see all the men's complaints.

A lot of prejudice and narrow-minded views over here. Do you raise your child to be a part of the system or do you raise it to be a healthy adequate person who can contribute to his family and community without letting anyone violate his boundaries?

imaima

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 1:01 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

I think you are projecting a lot.

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 1:29 pm

Op, this is interesting because I first want to say that many times parents spend lots of time teaching empathy, good middod, helping ....also to their boys, but SOME BOYS ARE LAZY AND WONT PUSH THEMSELVES to do, do, do. So, its not just parents' faults.
1) naturally, humans are lazy and life is not easy if you need to work(or learn) all day and then come home and help with the kids....help with housework...and at the same time learn, daven, do chesed.....there are so many responsibilities that I think some of these men(who probably were taught correctly) are not pushing themselves to do, do , do, and to suffer through the exhaustion, temper tantrums....and keep doing everything for their spouse, kids, and hashem. (some ppl have it easy and make a lot of money, can hire help....but not most of us)... So, what usually happens is that us women, we feel a sense of obligation so we work(helping our dh with his financial obligation) and we stil need to take care of our kids,cook, clean....most of us suffer through and push through even though we are stressed and tired...and we dont give up...we don't laze off""

Meanwhile, the men (some of the ones women complained about in the threads) are thinking I worked all day. I'm tired. Of course, I need to relax. Or, they learned from their moms that men should help in the home too, but they are tired and don't push through it to help ease their wives Burden. In other words, they are letting their needs get the better of them and are acting selfish.

Meanwhle, some women are taught wrong. Such that, yes, torah learning is
Important but this doesn't mean that if a wife is overwhelmed, her dh can't come home earlier to share in the burden. Yes, we are told that we need to treat our husbands like kings, but a lot of men are not understanding how to treat us like queens because they have to learn so many of them are focused on learning that they don't know how to they balance that responsibility along with their wives desire to sacrifice. Along the way, the men take advantage
And then everything falls on the woman and the men only focus on themselves while the women are taking care of everything.

And, even if the men are not learning,
The problem is yes, we girls are taught to treat our men like queens and in general, be positive, supportive....but the reality is that some men feel entitled and don't think of marriage as a team/partmership. We don't learn much about this before marriage. And, I think we women, learn more about sacrificing for our dhs ...than the men are taught to think about us in the marriage. So, the combination of a man who wont push himself to help out beyond doing his job"" of supporting and the woman who is taught to treat husband like a king, will be a problem because then the wife will be a schmatta not a queen. And, those men that act this way are lazy/selfish or ignorant about how to help or be a better teammate/how to treat wife as a queens..these men have to take time to really work on themselves to change. Its not a quick fix for the wives to "just stand up for themselves".

Those posters that say that the women are not standing up for themselves, well, this is not always the case. Sometimes women are waiting for their husbands to treat them like a queen because we were taught this(if we treat them like a king). But, other times women stand up for themselves but it makes no difference because the men are selfish/lazy or ignorant of how to be a team, so the wives wont fix the problem with "just standing up for herself". . . ...

Life is not so simple as "just train them" "just parent properly" or "just stand up for yourself". Sometimes men are lazy, selfish, insensitive....or even abusive. And, no woman "standing up for herself" will change him. There are deeper issues. And, some men are not marriage material bec. They are too selfish / wont compromise...or are feeling too entitled regardless of their moms teaching them to do chores and...

amother

Cyan

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 1:50 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

This! I think that this generation has the best tools available to help ourselves get out of any unhealthy cycle that we are caught in. The blame game doesn't produce better functioning adults.

When you have a spouse that is unhealthy and won't do much to change, it's really hard to raise normal kids.

I try hard and do my best, and so far my kids are B"H great kids. But they do carry a certain burden. There was only so much I could do to protect them from their father.

ShishKabob

Thu, Apr 11 2019, 1:56 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

This wasn't directed at your personal situation. I was referring to the general consensus of using the blame game for all of our shortcomings.
I agree with most of what you wrote.
Burleywood, You sound like a super good mom and a good solid person. And don't worry about your children. What they have to deal with is not on you. Hashem created their environment custom made for them and they will come out better and more resilient in spite of it.
I'm sorry that you have to deal with all of this.
Hashem should bentch you with hatzlocha and brocha tenfold.