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Poll: Do you vaccinate? (read thread first)
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Do you vaccinate?
Yes, on schedule.  
 73%  [ 379 ]
Selectively and/or delayed  
 7%  [ 37 ]
Only did because I was forced (want kids in school) or fined now  
 1%  [ 8 ]
No  
 3%  [ 19 ]
Something Else  
 0%  [ 1 ]
yes, but on a slower schedule  
 13%  [ 70 ]
Total Votes : 514



amother
Rose


 

Post Mon, Apr 15 2019, 6:54 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Had funny discussion with my antivaxx friend.
DF: Can you say that you are 100% confident that vaccinations aren’t dangerous?
Me: No. Still think it’s the best choice though.
DF: Well, I can say what I am doing is right with full confidence. If you aren’t as confident as me, that’s proof that you are wrong.
Me: Um, logic doesn’t actually work that way you know...
DF: Did you do your research?
Me: Not really, I don’t have the time right now to properly research it thoroughly, so I am relying on my doctor.
DF: There you go. I did do my research.
Me: Really? I didn’t know you were that type. So you read the original studies, with all relevant factors in consideration like demographics, sample size, and random selection of sample? And medical journals? What’s it say?
DF: Come on, I didn’t read the medical journals myself. But I heard a lady on a hotline talk about them.
Me: Oh, that’s research? Fine, then I also did my research. You heard studies quoted by a lady on a hotline, I heard studies quoted by my doctor.

Now whenever antivaxxer say they did their research I am wary.



This imaginary conversation reeks of exaggeration or is it entirely made up? Btw, do you really think your pediatrician has read the original studies? Do you think they took a single course in med school on vaccines? Literally a single one?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 15 2019, 8:40 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
This imaginary conversation reeks of exaggeration or is it entirely made up? Btw, do you really think your pediatrician has read the original studies? Do you think they took a single course in med school on vaccines? Literally a single one?


Why wouldn't doctors read through the studies? Do you think the articles are too difficult to read? They're really not. A well-written medical article is really quite simple to read once you've been exposed to enough. There's some background material and a discussion of the hypothesis that is being tested. The design of the experiment (study) is laid out. The results of the experiment (study) are given. You can get the gist of an article in 5-10 minutes, and a fairly thorough understanding in half an hour.

This question about whether or not doctors have taken a single course in vaccines, which I've seen before, is ridiculous. That's not the way the medical school curriculum is laid out. Doctors learn about vaccines through courses in infectious disease and/or immunology, and presumably, by reading a lot. Any decent doctor keeps up with the literature.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 3:36 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
That’s just silly though, cuz there’s a whole anti-vaxx works out there that isn’t Jewish

In another vaxxxx thread I wondered if someone has done a comparison of various Jewish groups and I suppose the same would be worthwhile comparing Jews to non-Jews. I have no idea what the results would be, and it might be interesting to include the ratio of unvaccinated individuals to infections. Also make sure to look at both the total number of people infected and the rate per thousand.

Note: I don't know what the results would be. Maybe there's a huge problem somewhere else that hasn't been noticed, isn't being reported about anywhere, or is big news in the local media and there's someone in wherever complaining that people at her job dont stop asking me if it's a "Rotarian thing" to not vaccinate. Or maybe not. Or you may all assume whichever result upsets you the most in place of data.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 4:07 am
imasoftov wrote:
In another vaxxxx thread I wondered if someone has done a comparison of various Jewish groups and I suppose the same would be worthwhile comparing Jews to non-Jews. I have no idea what the results would be, and it might be interesting to include the ratio of unvaccinated individuals to infections. Also make sure to look at both the total number of people infected and the rate per thousand.

Note: I don't know what the results would be. Maybe there's a huge problem somewhere else that hasn't been noticed, isn't being reported about anywhere, or is big news in the local media and there's someone in wherever complaining that people at her job dont stop asking me if it's a "Rotarian thing" to not vaccinate. Or maybe not. Or you may all assume whichever result upsets you the most in place of data.


Here's a couple of really good articles with facts and figures. It doesn't mention Jews anywhere, and only mentions Israel once, in passing.

Measles cases up by 300% so far in 2019, says WHO
https://scroll.in/latest/92028.....s-who

Growing fear about vaccination (including in India) is bringing back eradicated diseases
https://scroll.in/article/9163.....eases
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 4:42 am
Quote:


Quote[
I am going to post three links.

1. A short summary of the study, from NPR. https://www.npr.org/sections/h.....utism

2. An editorial from Annals of Internal Medicine, the journal that published the Danish study.
https://annals.org/aim/fullart.....tions

3. The article describing the Danish study.
https://annals.org/aim/fullart.....study

(Impact factor of Annals of Internal Medicine: 19.384. That's a strong impact factor score. But even more important is the quality of the study.)

I challenge you to find any study of this quality showing evidence of damage from vaccines.

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

https://icandecide.org/white-p.....m.pdf

https://icandecide.org/wp-cont.....7.pdf


Lavender, neither of the 2 papers you linked are clinical research studies.

The first paper suggests a possible damaging mechanism with some support from animal studies. I don't have enough background to evaluate their suggestion. If it has validity it needs to be followed up with wider scale clinical research.

The second paper is not a research paper at all, it is a review of safety procedures for vaccines.

The paper linked to by the previous poster, on the other hand, is a large-scale observational clinical trial involving more than 600,000 children. This study found no higher incidence of autism in vaccinated vs non-vaccinated children.

Can you see the difference between the three papers?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:14 am
imasoftov wrote:
In another vaxxxx thread I wondered if someone has done a comparison of various Jewish groups and I suppose the same would be worthwhile comparing Jews to non-Jews. I have no idea what the results would be, and it might be interesting to include the ratio of unvaccinated individuals to infections. Also make sure to look at both the total number of people infected and the rate per thousand.

Note: I don't know what the results would be. Maybe there's a huge problem somewhere else that hasn't been noticed, isn't being reported about anywhere, or is big news in the local media and there's someone in wherever complaining that people at her job dont stop asking me if it's a "Rotarian thing" to not vaccinate. Or maybe not. Or you may all assume whichever result upsets you the most in place of data.


I am not sure what you are referring to but there have been some anti-Semites in NYC using the measles as an excuse to be mean and one yeshiva was forced to close due to lack of documents required to show immunity.
People with babies are afraid of air travel.

My sister, however, lives in a place where the measles has not spread so nobody discusses it or cares whether or not their friends vaccinate. Likewise, they may know very little about their neighbors in regards to religious affiliation.

I did read somewhere, however, that the anti-vax movement infiltrates insular communities more than it influences people who live in mainstream society.
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tothepoint




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 7:57 am
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
if God wants you to die in an accident you will.
There's a real and valid reason why ppl don't vaccinate whether you agree or not....get off your high horse and realize this.



Oy.

And then there was a guy who had a car accident when his car caught on fire. Since he had his seatbelt on he could not escape and perished in the flames. Seatbelts kill lives! We must ban seatbelts at all costs!
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 9:01 am
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
This imaginary conversation reeks of exaggeration or is it entirely made up? Btw, do you really think your pediatrician has read the original studies? Do you think they took a single course in med school on vaccines? Literally a single one?


Think?? I KNOW they do.

U apparently know NOTHING about what it takes to become an dr. Yet r certain u know more of them??????

Banging head Banging head Banging head
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 9:32 am
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
This imaginary conversation reeks of exaggeration or is it entirely made up? Btw, do you really think your pediatrician has read the original studies? Do you think they took a single course in med school on vaccines? Literally a single one?

Are you nuts?
My husband is in medicine.
My FIL is an infectious disease doctor.
Yes they have read the studies BOTH IN SCHOOL AND CONTINUE TO and have been involved in research and studies.
HAVE YOU READ ANY REAL RESEARCH?
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 9:36 am
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I am not that amother but I surely wouldn't want my family associated with someone like you....such hatred is horrible to your fellow Jew NO MATTER if they got a darn shot or not. If Hashem wants you to get the measles YOU WILL GET IT even if you had every shot in the books and your immunity comes back a trillion percent. Sick of these hatred threads.

OMG I really fear for your sanity. If you are claiming "religious exemption" I would like you to ask whichever religious leader you got that from to read what you wrote and see if he agrees.
If you follow TEVA and are immunized and immune you CAN NOT get the measles! Hashem runs the world according to TEVA! That's like saying if Hashem wants I can stand in the middle of a busy highway and I will not get hurt! So you are standing in middle of the highway and waiting! I'm sorry, this reminds me of Christianity claiming Yoshka was born from a virgin. If Hashem wanted him to be born without a father, he could be!
THAT'S NOT HOW G-D RUNS THE WORLD!
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 9:45 am
Sorry if this has been posted already but here is an editorial from Der Yid which I believe is affiliated with the Williamsburg Satmer

If you follow the link, the editorial is in both Yiddish and English.

https://cdn.theyeshivaworld.co.....l.pdf

A Yiddish newspaper, Der Yid, which is associated with Satmar Hasidim, took the extraordinary step of translating an editorial into English that excoriates those who do not believe in being vaccinated: “Senseless! Heartless! Torah-Less and Reckless” read the headline.

And I read today that the City closed down a preschool in Brooklyn because it had not complied with keeping records.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 9:57 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Why wouldn't doctors read through the studies? Do you think the articles are too difficult to read? They're really not. A well-written medical article is really quite simple to read once you've been exposed to enough. There's some background material and a discussion of the hypothesis that is being tested. The design of the experiment (study) is laid out. The results of the experiment (study) are given. You can get the gist of an article in 5-10 minutes, and a fairly thorough understanding in half an hour.

This question about whether or not doctors have taken a single course in vaccines, which I've seen before, is ridiculous. That's not the way the medical school curriculum is laid out. Doctors learn about vaccines through courses in infectious disease and/or immunology, and presumably, by reading a lot. Any decent doctor keeps up with the literature.


I can't imagine a competent pediatrician who isn't completely current on vaccination studies given their primacy in providing child care - and setting up a program in which the medical staff/doctors explain vaccinations and schedules as they would any other medical question raised by a patient.

My PCP quite obviously reads a lot of medical literature to keep current. Quite often, if we are discussing something related to health, she will inform me of latest studies she has read and since she carries a laptop with her, will often bring up the relevant data while we are talking in the exam room.

I really despair of how people do not seem to value professional expertise - not just in medicine but in all fields, there seems to be almost a movement to disparage intellectual/professional expertise. I don't second guess my electrician/car mechanic/plumber so I am not about to devalue the medical opinions of well trained doctors. I am careful about checking the credentials of doctors (just as I want references for a plumber) and if I were being advised of critical medical options such, I might seek a second opinion from another well respected doctor but I wouldn't pick and choose in an attempt to find a doctor who agreed with hare brained internet advice.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 11:30 am
Whenever DD or I got a vaccine, I first had to read a information sheet that explains what the vaccine is supposed to protect you from. It also states very clearly the success and failure rate of the vaccine, when you will need a booster, and the risks involved. It tells you what side effects might happen, what an allergic reaction looks like, and when to be taken to the ER. There is full disclosure, and then some.

I have to sign all the forms every single time, for each vaccine. They will not give the vaccines until the forms are signed. The forms are available in a wide variety of languages, depending on what is needed in the community.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 11:51 am
I am old enough to remember when there were no vaccines and then when the vaccines were available, how parents rushed to doctors to be vaccinated.

My school provided shots in the classroom - we all lined up for our polio shots and I don't know if parents were even given consent forms. In any event, consent forms would have been completely irrelevant as NO PARENT did not vaccinate because they had seen first hand the scourge of childhood diseases.

In the wide circle of children I knew - and adults who I have met in the course of my life, I have NEVER encountered anyone who had any kind of severe adverse effect from a standard vaccine. I am not saying they don't exist - only that the numbers are so small in terms of a cost benefit analysis that no sane person would refrain from vaccinating unless there was truly a medical reason why the vaccines would be counter-productive.

It is ironic that the success of vaccinations have enable people to ignore the dangers of not being vaccinated because they relied on the sanity of the rest of the population in terms of it being unlikely that they or their children would actually be exposed to measles - that's how herd immunity works. It protects infants, immunocompromised and unfortunately, those who are too stupid and selfish to vaccinate themselves and their children.

It wasn't until that discredited British quack published the fake study that there was even an anti-vaccination movement.
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 11:59 am
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

It wasn't until that discredited British quack published the fake study that there was even an anti-vaccination movement.


Wakefield certainly has A LOT to answer for. But anti-vaccination propaganda has been around ever since vaccines were developed, and interestingly, it's hardly changed at all. Look at posters from the 1800s and early 1900s side by side with todays anti-vax graphics and they're basically the same. If anyone's interested, I can post some examples when I'm on the computer.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 12:05 pm
Aylat wrote:
Wakefield certainly has A LOT to answer for. But anti-vaccination propaganda has been around ever since vaccines were developed, and interestingly, it's hardly changed at all. Look at posters from the 1800s and early 1900s side by side with todays anti-vax graphics and they're basically the same. If anyone's interested, I can post some examples when I'm on the computer.

I’m curious to see
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 16 2019, 12:31 pm
imasoftov wrote:
In another vaxxxx thread I wondered if someone has done a comparison of various Jewish groups and I suppose the same would be worthwhile comparing Jews to non-Jews. I have no idea what the results would be, and it might be interesting to include the ratio of unvaccinated individuals to infections. Also make sure to look at both the total number of people infected and the rate per thousand.

Note: I don't know what the results would be. Maybe there's a huge problem somewhere else that hasn't been noticed, isn't being reported about anywhere, or is big news in the local media and there's someone in wherever complaining that people at her job dont stop asking me if it's a "Rotarian thing" to not vaccinate. Or maybe not. Or you may all assume whichever result upsets you the most in place of data.


According to the statement issued by Agudah, the average immunization rate of yeshivos is slightly higher than that of public schools (upwards of 96%). Of course, this is only meaningful in terms of how to respond to a statement about "all Jews..."
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Aylat




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:02 am
Aylat wrote:
Wakefield certainly has A LOT to answer for. But anti-vaccination propaganda has been around ever since vaccines were developed, and interestingly, it's hardly changed at all. Look at posters from the 1800s and early 1900s side by side with todays anti-vax graphics and they're basically the same. If anyone's interested, I can post some examples when I'm on the computer.





Animal-derived ingredients = gross and harmful!

Then


This is a cartoon of vaccinated patients growing mutant animals on their limbs, because the first vaccine was a derivative of cowpox.

Zoom-in


Now



The death motif, skull and crossbones.

Then


Now



Anti-vax propaganda on envelopes.

Then

Now


Note the themes of violence and force in both pictures.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:32 am
Aylat wrote:
Wakefield certainly has A LOT to answer for. But anti-vaccination propaganda has been around ever since vaccines were developed, and interestingly, it's hardly changed at all. Look at posters from the 1800s and early 1900s side by side with todays anti-vax graphics and they're basically the same. If anyone's interested, I can post some examples when I'm on the computer.

I'm curious if aside from the Tiferet Yisrael's description of Edward Jenner as pious there were Jews (rabbis or laypeople) at the time who said "If G-d wants you to die of smallpox the vaccine won't help".
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:42 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
Here's a couple of really good articles with facts and figures. It doesn't mention Jews anywhere, and only mentions Israel once, in passing.

Measles cases up by 300% so far in 2019, says WHO
https://scroll.in/latest/92028.....s-who

Growing fear about vaccination (including in India) is bringing back eradicated diseases
https://scroll.in/article/9163.....eases

Other countries mentioned in the first link are Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Madagascar, Myanmar, Philippines, Sudan, Thailand, Ukraine and Tunisia. It's rather distressing to find the US and Israel in their company, even though it's distressing that a preventable disease exists anywhere on the planet.
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