CHAOS IN LAKEWOOD: Hundreds of Yeshiva Bochrim Protest

naturalmom5

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 7:50 pm

debsey wrote:

There is a minhag not to have a concert since the Churban Bayis. No such minhag exists regarding bowling. I'm somehow doubting there was a Lucky Strikes around during the immediate aftermath of the destruction of the Second Temple.

My son's yeshiva doesn't really legislate too much of what they do during Bein HaZemanim. I think they know that the bochurim who attend have families with certain standards, and it's more the parents' job to ensure they are entertained only in a wholesome fashion.

This was more of a "minhag b'Yisroel K'din" kind of thing. Not that the concert itself was problematic, but that we have a mesorah not to have concerts, so what suddenly allows that to be overturned?

But Debsey
There are nekevas all over the bowling alley
And most of them are dressed pritzadik

sky

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 8:09 pm

debsey wrote:

Right - but you follow minhag hamakom, and the minhag of Lakewood has been that there are no concerts unless it's a siyum or chol HaMoed

Iirc even chol hamoed rav matisyahu spoke out against. It’s not new to Lakewood. Until recently there were never concerts and oot concerts were never advertised. I saw on the billboard an advertisement for a chol hamoed concert and was like it’s a new time in Lakewood.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:15 pm

[quote="amother [ Lemon ]"]These things make me so angry. They don't let the boys attend kosher entertainment, but then get upset when they go to inappropriate places. Do they really expect the boys to sit home???
There are the Yiddish Interin plays on chol hamoed, Satmer doesn't allow the boys to attend. It's 100% kosher entertainment with mashgichim around. Do you know where all these satmer boys end up spending chol hamoed??? At kalahari and camelback gawking at ladies in bikinis!!!!!! And the cheder has no right to blame the boys, they're forbidden to attend the kosher entertainment and they won't sit home all day! The priorities are so mixed up, it's crazy. They're so buzy saying no to everything and zapping the life out of the kids, that they don't even think anymore before saying no, it's automatically a no. Sad.[

Your wrong my dear! Satmer is making there own professional play this year like they have bein doing for the past few years.

malki2

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 2:37 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

This is not an opportunity to bash RY and Gedolim. This was an opportunity for frustrated parents to vent against a system that's placing an unbearable yoke on too many of our boys.

I intensely dislike bashing Roshei Yeshiva and gedolim, and I don't believe I know better than any of them. But I do believe that explanations are warranted on most occasions and they should share their reasonings with us. The Torah doesn't command us to follow our leaders blindly. The Torah itself with all of its commandments, barring the few chukim, is understandable and explanatory. And our leaders should follow suit (barring a few exceptions).

We need to learn, understand and ask, so that we know how to behave and handle ourselves in the future. If the Rabbonim just issue edicts without explanations, how will I know how to evaluate a similar circumstance? Teach me what's wrong with the current scenario, so I can apply that knowledge in the future.

As for second guessing - Rabbonim are not angels. If again and again they seem to miss the mark, and my children are bearing the brunt of it, there's nothing wrong with asking what's going on behind the scenes. Hashem entrusted me with the responsibility of raising my sons to be the best they can be, and it's my duty and obligation not to stand by while the system takes its toll on them. Of course, it needs to be done in a respectful manner and of course, that does NOT mean that my kids should be protesting in the streets. There is a proper way of doing it, and one of the ways is respectfully discussing among ourselves to see if there's a consensus out there.

Very very well put.

I would just add that what happened the other night is a clear sign that there is a failure in the system. I know that everything looks so good on the outside, but if it’s come to a point where hundreds of bachurim can get together and riot like a bunch of (add your comparison here), there’s something seriously wrong with the system. Could it be that overpressuring boys and shoving nothing but Gemara down their throats for 10 years without much attention to “Chanoch lenaar al pi darko” and giving them a true appreciation of Yiddishkeit is producing a product that is shiny on the outside but rotten on the inside?

Ema of 5

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 3:36 am

malki2 wrote:

It’s not always so shiny on the outside either....

amother

Linen

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 4:50 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

It’s not always so shiny on the outside either....

Im not sure why this whole thread brings to mind an experience about 10 years ago of a DD going out with a serious learner, who took lots of his time on a first date venting how the world revolves around money, everyone is a bunch of hypocrites, and even or especially the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva only care about money, and every decision they make is based on money, only to get engaged to an amazing girl, and get supported comfortably for at least 5 years.

There seems to be discontent even among "TOP LEARNERS".

leah233

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:01 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Totally off topic but for me, someone taking lots of time on a first date venting how the world revolves around money, everyone is a bunch of hypocrites etc. would be a major red flag.

I have plenty of top learners in my extended family. None of them are the type to sit around venting about anything. They certainly don't engage in gratuitous "everyone is a bunch of hypocrites" type of talk.

Even if they personally happen to agree that the world and the people in should be run /doing things differently .

amother

Linen

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:09 am

leah233 wrote:

True, but some voice opinions more and some voice opinions less, and theyre opinions coming from "hot catches" in Lakewood. This is all proof that its not only the "weak learners" who are edgy about the Lakewood atmosphere and system, and arent impressed with the leaders, and are just walking the walk and talking the talk to satisfy parents and some other personal advantages.

Im sure many of the thousands of boys venting this week about the concert being canceled, if youd scratch a little deeper, you could hear them venting about much more than the concert being canceled.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:20 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

We're in total agreement
Is there a lunar and solar eclipse tonight

A lunar or solar eclipse indeed.

I don't understand something. I may be from a different generation, but growing up, I have always understood that this is the difference between Litvaks and Chassidim - Chassidim ask their Rebbes every little thing how to run their life and Litvaks use their own seichel. I feel a bit like Choiny Hamagol - when has this changed?

Also, I heard the concept that you are supposed to stick to one Rav and ask him all your Shaylos. I mentioned this to dh recently and he said - never heard of it. DH will ask his shaylos to whichever Rav happens to be available at the moment.

I know that there is a concept of being shoyel eitzah of a chacham - but as far as I know it's not binding to listen to this? And honestly, not every Rav/Rosh Yeshiva is expert on everything. Maybe the Chazon Ish or R' Moshe or R' Belsky... none of who are alive any more. To paraphrase Rabbi Avigdor Miller - you don't take your car to your Rav to fix. Everyone has their area of expertise, and not every Rav is expert in every area.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:25 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I agree with leah233 - this is not a "hot catch".

And here is where I completely disagree with you - children have been unhappy about how their parents/teachers are raising them since the world began. No-one is every 100% happy about their chinuch. Most feel that their parents/teachers have made minor/major mistakes. But in the olden days, parents/schools backed each other up. I personally think it's completely wrong to take a child's side in this. You don't have to agree with every policy your son's school makes, and most don't, but if you chose this school - even reluctantly - then you have an obligation to back up the school's decisions. IMHO.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:39 am

DrMom wrote:

This whole thread is devoid of content.

There is no information on why this concert was cancelled, who cancelled it, or why.

BTW, who are "the rabbanim?" Do they have names? Why doesn't someone interview them to get their side of the story?

I sort of agree, but I sure hope the reason for the cancellation was not because it's minhag hamakom not to hold a concert except when there is a real siyum or chol hamoed. Times have changed and the demographics in Lakewood are such, that there are a large segment of the less yeshivish crowd who don't care or give a hoot about this minhag hamakom from 30 years ago when Lakewood was all very yeshivish. Know your customer.

The rav in my shul (not Lakewood) is a very yeshivish adom gadol who has learned shas many times. He is constantly offering Kulas regarding working on chol hamoed, showering on yom tov and many other areas. He knows his crowd. If he tries to impose his own machmir lifestyle on us, we are not interested. I hope the leaders in Lakewood aren't imposing their way of life on the entire olam.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:45 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

With all due respect, then why live in Lakewood? There are plenty of other frum places to live. I think that we DO owe the Lakewood Roshei Yeshivos some allegiance, at least in matters of public interest, as the yeshivah is really what this town is built around. Not that you agree - but follow in public.

To pasken as to what people do in private is a totally different thing.

amother

Linen

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:45 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

You don't have to agree with every policy your son's school makes, and most don't, but if you chose this shool - even reluctantly - then you have an obligation to back up the school's decisions. IMHO.

Exactly why no one, kids and parents, usually tells anyone their true feelings these days and lives with hopefully small, but sometimes big painful discontent.

In certain communities there arent any options (Chassidish Boro Park, Litvish Lakewood), and if you dont want to "upset the apple cart" for fear of looking bad and being a rabble-rouser, you just shut up.

malki2

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:59 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Please let’s keep to the subject. If you want to go on a tangent, please open a S/O.

amother

Linen

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:17 am

malki2 wrote:

Please let’s keep to the subject. If you want to go on a tangent, please open a S/O.

Huh?

Definition of go off on a tangent
: to start talking about something that is only slightly or indirectly related to the original subject

https://www.merriam-webster.co.....ngent

The Chaos was a result of discontent over a canceled concert, Im saying that the discontent is way deeper. How is that go(ing) off on a tangent???? Its very much staying on topic!

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:48 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

The rav in my shul (not Lakewood) is a very yeshivish adom gadol who has learned shas many times. He is constantly offering Kulas regarding working on chol hamoed, showering on yom tov and many other areas. He knows his crowd. If he tries to impose his own machmir lifestyle on us, we are not interested. I hope the leaders in Lakewood aren't imposing their way of life on the entire olam.

I would reframe it not that he's finding kulos as much as finding what is the best halachic option for his kehilla, on a case by case bases, given their situations.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:51 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I can't say forsure how or why things have changes in Lakewood since 25 years ago, but I would imagine it's the result of yeshivish families from years ago have large families. Some of those children are now more modern married adults. Since they are from Lakewood they stayed. Once Lakewood has some of these more modern type people it encourages more modern families from elsewhere to move to the Lakewood area because they fit in.

This is exactly the situation with my yeshivish aunt and uncle from Lakewood who are in their 60's. They have K'H a large family. 2 of the children ended up more modern but stayed in Lakewood anyway. They married similar people and now have a slightly modern family that is not in line with the old Lakewood yeshivish style.