CHAOS IN LAKEWOOD: Hundreds of Yeshiva Bochrim Protest

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:21 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

But this is a very non-Yeshivish hashkafa, I think. In the last several decades, perhaps longer, the approach has been that when you choose someone to be your rav, you listen to him in all matters. (This is one of the reasons that I could never live a Yeshivish lifestyle or live in a Yeshivish community.)
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This is an interesting question. Is it disingenuous or cafeteria-style to ask an eitzah of someone vs. a shaila? Because the former means, I'll consider what you have to say, the latter, I will listen.

But you know, as I type, I'm clarifying my thoughts. We b"H have gedolim (and gedolos), people of great stature who exhibit true and wonderful leadership. Of course they're not popes, we don't believe in infallibility. But we also can't confuse turning to certain people for leadership with, is he my rav? People need to have a more personal and immediate relationship with a rav. Someone can choose a person to be his (her too) rav by making an informed choice - over years of having this person as his rebbi, davening in his shul, having met him elsewhere. This is someone whose mehalech he is committed to following. This rav will of course have someone whom he turns to for input, either as a talmid or as a colleague. But most people, unless they are very geographically or otherwise close, aren't calling say, Rav Chaim or Rav Shmuel or Rav Reuven*, shlita to all, their rav.

*recognizable by many by their first names. Kanievsky, Kamenetsky, Feinstein, shlita, respectively

amother

Aqua

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:29 am

little neshamala wrote:

These "askanim" often greatly exagerrate/lie about what the event will entail, prompting the Roshei Yeshiva to respond that way. Im willing to bet the Roshei Yeshiva were misinformed, or that their response itself was greatly exagerrated.

No disrespect intended however, then perhaps they should take the time and effort to see what it is that they are giving their opinions on and what they are signing their names to?

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:32 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I would have much less of an issue with this current situation if it wouldn't have been handled in this manner. I would want to hear from my Rav/Rebbe about their opinion of this event, but to issue an outright ban and block the event from ongoing is what's the problem on hand here. I can understand that reaction if this was to be a mixed event, unkosher music, or other halachic issues. But this wasn't the case and not everyone follows the same Rav, and not everyone has the same Rebbes. Let everyone follow their own Rav/Rebbe and decide accordingly if they do or don't want to attend.

If the majority of the Rabbonim are not in favor of it, then the event won't be too successful and it won't be repeated or will be a low key event. If its only a few Rabbonim who aren't in favor of it, why ruin it for everyone else? And if it is the situation where the majority of the Rabbonim are against it, and the majority still attend, then there's a much bigger problem on hand. A much bigger problem that will only be exacerbated by blocking all venues of entertainment for bochurim.

Ema of 5

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:40 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Well I only have boys (and one little girl), I work almost full time, have very little cleaning help, so yes, I do need them home full time right now. And I don't understand why the girls don't have time off but the boys do.

My daughters school (she’s 9) is off tomorrow, my boys (12 and 6) both have school tomorrow.
I expect all my kids to help, in whatever capacity they are able. I don’t work all day without a break, and I don’t expect that from them either. Even my 2 year old helps- she wipes out the freezer and wipes down the stools in the kitchen. In terms of cooking (chopping, peeling, etc) when we need help we ask for it.
I don’t overburden myself, and I don’t want to overburden my kids. As I’ve said before, cleaning and prepping for pesach is not stressful for me, and that’s the attitude I want to give to my kids as well. Yes, there’s a lot to do, but when done right, it doesn’t need to be terrible. Obviously what’s right for me and what’s right for you are different, but I think that’s understood.

Mevater

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:43 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

The boys don't have whom to turn to. The parents aren't there for them, or don't have the ability to help them out, their Rebbes and leaders don't understand them, it isn't a too far stretch to realize that eventually they'll take things into their own hands.

I bet most parents were annoyed too and probably said that in private conversations among themselves in Lakewood.

Its "Dont have the ability to help them out", because those who are too outspoken in a community get shunned and get a bad reputation.

Youd think the boys who wanted a few hours of entertainment with the likes of Beri Weber, want to go OTD or something, or it would lead to that. This was outrageous.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 10:50 am

Mevater wrote:

ITA. (I did mention that in my post, that parents privately complain among themselves.) And if you would try to talk to the RY why you're interested in some entertainment for your son, they categorize your son as weak.

We offer no balance of life for the boys. As the other poster mentioned - we expect them to be Gedolim in their youths, without any form or relaxation, or outlets provided. Basically, we ask of them to be malachim, and then label them as a weak generation when they can't comply.

Mevater

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:13 am

chestnut wrote:

After all this, I'm afraid, many boys will be thrown out of their yeshivos, for not listening to daas Torah. Of course, they'll have a hard time getting elsewhere. But no one thinks of what it might lead to...

Big deal. A few Karbanos with mental illness on meds (no unfortunately this isnt an exaggeration, this is what happens way too often when kids are thrown out of school, without a valid reason and go downhill).

sky

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:21 am

DVOM wrote:

[/b]

I am so confused, and now also really curious!!

'Lakewood' doesn't allow concerts? Who is 'Lakewood'? Was this a concert? I'm at a loss to understand why a siyum/kumzitz would get banned.

I’m referring to the Lakewood yeshiva community. If you would ask a bmg rav most likely this is what they would say. (I know my rav doesn’t allow any concerts and my DH has never been to one)
My DH grew up in Lakewood and while he is a blue shirt working guy we strongly connect to that community and follow their shitus.
Rav matisyahu used to announce proudly that while other communities advertise concerts and circus for chol hamoed it doesn’t happen in Lakewood.
I’m referring to old Lakewood yeshivish as I’m assuming that is who it was geared to rather then other groups who have their own outlets and entertainment (eatentiwn yeshiva had their own concert last week).

Just a synopsis of how I view Lakewood because you asked.

The truth is my DH would go and does go to Kumzitz often with live music. It’s not a concert. And the speaker scheduled was a chashuv very smart rav so I’m not sure why it was canceled.

The whole situation is so sad.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:33 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Can't comment on this specific event as I have no idea what went on.
But Mistyrose amother you are spot on with the bolded.
My 13yr old who is my oldest is a very smart and studious kid. Loves to learn. By today's standards we should send him to a top mesivta/yeshiva ketaneh. But those top mesivtas have crazy crazy learning hours. Over 12 hours! I want a place that has a healthy balance. Strong academics but strong extracurricular. Such a place doesn't exist especially for a chassidish bochur like my son.
Any yeshiva that offers more down time is made for weak learners. Why? Why can't normal bochurim not be pushed to their breaking point and enjoy their childhoods with strong learning plus kosher entertainment and sports?

/Vent over.

UQT

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:34 am

My son is in 11th grade and Bein Hazmanim is a real challenge. He davens at 9, does the shul learning program and we pay for someone to learn with him for an hour from 11-12. Then the boys go out to eat. (They eat out 2-3 times a day, just so they have something to do:) Yesterday we turned over the dining room. With 4 teenagers and myself working (I have 3 girls) we were done in under 2 hours. Then we were done for the day. What do we do to keep the boys busy the rest of the day. They roam the neighborhood in packs, hitch here and there and in general are quite bored. The concert was a highlight for them! My son bought a $10 ticket with is own money which he earned cleaning someones car. Maybe there are boys who learn for hours and hours, but come face reality - most boys don't. He works really hard during the zman and we allow him his downtime when he is off.
Tonight he plans to go to a ball game. We hired youngerman to chaperon them. Isn't that way better? Wake up and smell the coffee. There are boys who need outlets. Lets not take that away from them.

DVOM

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:38 am

UQT wrote:

UQT, how did you explain the cancelled concert to your son? Was there any sort of 'teachable moment' here for kids who had been planning to go and were told that it was cancelled? What was the establishments explanation for why it was cancelled?

sky

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:41 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

I agree with this 100%. Plus the lack of English. And even places with English it’s a joke which I think is even worse.

Like I said earlier my DH grew up in Lakewood in a bmg family. They had outlets and extra curriculiers. They all went to yeshiva out of Lakewood to have a good English education. He can’t wrap his head around the day local boys have. I also have a son going to yeshiva soon and I’m overwhelmed for him.

shoshanim999

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:49 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

I agree that the behavior was totally unacceptable, in every which way. With that said, what options are we leaving the bochurim with? This has been happening too many times, and there doesn't seem to be a let up or anyone offering an alternative besides "go to Bais Medrash and learn". Where are the parents in this pictures? Do we ever stick up for our boys and discuss this with the Rebbes and RY's in a respectable manner? Where are the fathers of all these boys asking for acceptable entertainment for our bochurim? All we do, is privately complain about this, and publicly declare to our boys that we have to accept the Rabbonim's decisions even though we don't 100% understand it?

The boys don't have whom to turn to. The parents aren't there for them, or don't have the ability to help them out, their Rebbes and leaders don't understand them, it isn't a too far stretch to realize that eventually they'll take things into their own hands.

What our leaders don't get is that every action has an equal but opposite reaction. The more you push, the more you oppress, the bigger the reaction will be. It may not be present at first, but it simmers under the surface until it builds up to an explosion.

This is unfair to say until we know why the leaders cancelled the event. Perhaps if you knew what they were told, you would actually agree that the event be cancelled.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 12:03 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

This is unfair to say until we know why the leaders cancelled the event. Perhaps if you knew what they were told, you would actually agree that the event be cancelled.

So why aren't we told?

It's a kosher entertainment, no mixed seatings, no secular music, and was advertised as approved by other Rabbonim. At such occasions, there is an expectation that the wrong be publicized to avoid precisely such a situation where the bochurim explode or the respect of our leaders weaken. They don't need to spell out all the details involved but a general idea of what was wrong with the event is expected. Otherwise, how will we not repeat this or take away the wrong message from it?

And while I may agree, or my Rav or my Rebbe may agree, - but maybe your Rav and your Rebbe won't agree. So why can't your children partake in the event? As I spelled out in my previous posts, all the Rabbonim SHOULD make their opinions and reasonings known, and let everyone follow their own Ravs. You shouldn't be forced to follow my Rav and I shouldn't be forced to follow your Rav.

And I will say one thing, it is incumbent upon our leaders to be in touch with the generations they're leading and to fully investigate the claims of one or two people before issuing mass directives that effect 100s, if not 1000s of people.