CHAOS IN LAKEWOOD: Hundreds of Yeshiva Bochrim Protest

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 4:37 pm

debsey wrote:

Not going to say what mesivta, but in general, I'm very happy with it. I have three boys in three mesivtas currently, and happy with all, but one stands out. Funnily enough, that was the one son who wasn't happy with where he was accepted, and we tried to move heaven and earth to get him in somewhere else. As it turns out, he was very happy there and I wish my younger son had wanted to go.

My son just clarified - the conference call was by a rebbe in his mesivta, but he invited any other boys from any other mesivta who wanted to know why to call in, so all three of my boys did that.

I did pick my boys up before any pepper spraying because they sensibly realized no concert was going to happen and asked to be taken bowling instead. I'm lucky that I have a much older son who was willing to drive them and be a chaperone to the bowling alley. (although apparently his idea of chaperoning is to bring them, drop them off, give them a family cell phone, and ask them to call him when they are ready to be picked up.)

Not that I have a problem with either a kumzitz or bowling. But.. what made the kumzitz more problematic than bowling? Does the yeshiva approve of bochurim bowling?

debsey

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 4:41 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Not that I have a problem with either a kumzitz or bowling. But.. what made the kumzitz more problematic than bowling? Does the yeshiva approve of bochurim bowling?

There is a minhag not to have a concert since the Churban Bayis. No such minhag exists regarding bowling. I'm somehow doubting there was a Lucky Strikes around during the immediate aftermath of the destruction of the Second Temple.

My son's yeshiva doesn't really legislate too much of what they do during Bein HaZemanim. I think they know that the bochurim who attend have families with certain standards, and it's more the parents' job to ensure they are entertained only in a wholesome fashion.

This was more of a "minhag b'Yisroel K'din" kind of thing. Not that the concert itself was problematic, but that we have a mesorah not to have concerts, so what suddenly allows that to be overturned?

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 4:48 pm

debsey wrote:

I hear. I guess I'm not familiar with anyone today who avoids concerts due to that minhag. Isn't it more of a family minhag vs something the yeshiva should impose?

Notsobusy

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 6:18 pm

debsey wrote:

I honestly don't understand. There are frum concerts all the time and they are packed with frum attendees. If this is such a strong minhag and so important, then why don't the rabbonim come out against these concerts all the time?

Also, these days, almost every fundraiser/dinner/parlor meeting, has some kind of singer or kumzitz or choir. What makes that less of a concert and why is that allowed?

(I'm not questioning you specifically Debsey, I just quoted your post)

Notsobusy

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 6:21 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

I live very close to where the protest took place.

I just have to say that I'm pretty sure the protest was a lot worse than the event itself would have been (whatever was wrong with it, I'm not sure.) Those boys were having the time of their life, and I don't mean that in a good way at all.

What were the boys doing that was so terrible? Why was such a large police response necessary?

I watched some of the videos and didn't see anything bad. I didn't watch all, it is Erev Pesach after all, and I'm trying to figure out what I missed.

I'm sure it was annoying to people in the neighborhood, but other than that, what was so bad about it?

Lesia

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 6:54 pm

Our MO schools keep the kids on a regular schedule until one day before Pesach. Girls and boys. What’s the purpose of letting the kids out of school for four weeks and then having to deal with this ensuing chaos and drama.

Teachers needing time off for cleaning is a pathetic excuse, as they can learn to manage just the same as the tens of thousands of men and women who work full time and still make Pesach.

amother

Tan

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 7:00 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

This thread has been very disappointing so far. There is no information as to what the roshei yeshivos were told that led them to wanting this event canceled. What were they told? Was it true? Until we know both sides to this story we don't know the facts and cannot decide if the cancellation was justified or not.

Some people love to have an opportunity to bash roshei Yeshiva and gedolim, as they believe they know better than the gedolim. It says in the Torah a concept basically like that if a gadol tells you it’s light outside while you see clearly it’s nighttime, you have to believe them even if you don’t understand. Stop the lashon hara and second guessing and better get back to your pesach preparation!

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 7:36 pm

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

This is not an opportunity to bash RY and Gedolim. This was an opportunity for frustrated parents to vent against a system that's placing an unbearable yoke on too many of our boys.

I intensely dislike bashing Roshei Yeshiva and gedolim, and I don't believe I know better than any of them. But I do believe that explanations are warranted on most occasions and they should share their reasonings with us. The Torah doesn't command us to follow our leaders blindly. The Torah itself with all of its commandments, barring the few chukim, is understandable and explanatory. And our leaders should follow suit (barring a few exceptions).

We need to learn, understand and ask, so that we know how to behave and handle ourselves in the future. If the Rabbonim just issue edicts without explanations, how will I know how to evaluate a similar circumstance? Teach me what's wrong with the current scenario, so I can apply that knowledge in the future.

As for second guessing - Rabbonim are not angels. If again and again they seem to miss the mark, and my children are bearing the brunt of it, there's nothing wrong with asking what's going on behind the scenes. Hashem entrusted me with the responsibility of raising my sons to be the best they can be, and it's my duty and obligation not to stand by while the system takes its toll on them. Of course, it needs to be done in a respectful manner and of course, that does NOT mean that my kids should be protesting in the streets. There is a proper way of doing it, and one of the ways is respectfully discussing among ourselves to see if there's a consensus out there.

debsey

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 7:46 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

Others have posted that there was going to be a siyum.

based on what my son told me, it sounded to the rabbanim like it was going to be a token siyum. It's not like - oh wow, we finished shas! Let's make a siyum and let's have a singer. It was more like "oh, there's a minhag not to make a concert. OK, let's have a token siyum and say that it's for that."

It's the 613 obstacles thinking (as opposed to 613 mitzvos) that the rabbanim are trying to avoid. Eytan Kobre had a great article about it in Mishpacha once - all the "siyum" 9 Days BBQ events to raise money for good causes kind of negate the whole purpose of the 9 Days. It's not - how do we overcome this obstacle? It's - this is the minhag, let's uphold it.

What can I say? My kids got it and weren't upset.

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 8:09 pm

debsey wrote:

There are actually detailed halachos about when a siyum is allowed to be celebrated in the nine days. Afaik nothing similar exists for siyumim outside of a mourning period.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 8:12 pm

debsey wrote:

It's only a 'token' when it involves something for the bochurim. A concert is ok for fundraising purposes. When money is involved, its an obstacle to overcome. But if it's to rejuvenate and provide a kosher outlet for our bochurim, the same rationalizations go out the window.

Don't worry - I don't relay this attitude to my boys Smile

. I hear them out, and discuss with them the RY's point of view, and then explain to them that as Bochurim, it is their duty and responsibility to respectfully follow their RY, even if they have differing opinions. B"H, besides for some good nature grumbling, they readily do so.

But, as a parent, it really gets under my skin how a generation can be so blind to the needs of our youth. How we can come up with all kinds of rationalizations for everything else, but come down with such a heavy-handed rigid approach on the very vulnerable group of male youths. And then we wring our hands and wonder, "what's going wrong with their generation".

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 8:12 pm

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

It does not say in the Torah that every "gadol" needs to be "your gadol." Obviously not, as there are so many contradictions in the shittas of different gedolim. So yes, you should have a moreh derech/ gadol/ rav whom you follow faithfully. But you don't have to follow every Rav blindly. Though obviously outright zilzul is never ok.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 9:47 pm

Lesia wrote:

No middle ground? Like giving the kids some earlier time off? Do they at least cut down on homework and tests?