S/o cancelled concert..

amother

Mon, Apr 15 2019, 11:52 pm

I have a house full of boys kah with the oldest almost 12. This whole story really got me thinking.... what are boys supposed to be doing bein Hazmanim. Yes, they will learn and help and eat but how should they “chill”. They do work so hard and they do need outlets. I keep thinking that in a few years I will have a few teenage boys hanging around and I keep envisioning what happened last night and reading your responses on that other thread I see it’s a major challenge.
So, to those of you there , how do you give your teenage boys that proper balance and help them feel content so that they dont need to be wandering the streets, hitching from one side of town to the other in search of entertainment... it s really scaring me...

DVOM

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:23 am

We put this question to our Rabbi about a year ago. The catalyst for the question was a bit different: I'm raising 4 boys in Lakewood, oldest is almost 11. In my kids' school, I'd say about half the kids have access to some sort of entertainment system (ds, Xbox, Wii, ps4, or an ipad or computer they are allowed to use) and our oldest started petitioning to get one as well. We both really dislike screen-based entertainment, not so much for religous reasons, more because we don't think it's great for thier development.

What we've been trying to do is give our kids exposure to many different outlets, and helping them develop hobbies they really enjoy. The aim is to give them something to fill the void that so many people are describing: nothing to do with time off, a)because they never have any and are so unused to it and b)because there is no 'kosher' entertainment. Well, my little boys have time off now, at this age, and we are using that time to help them find things they are interested in and passionate about that are productive, fun, and positive.

We are investing quite a bit of money and time on these hobbies, and some of them are really sticking. My oldest (the one who wanted the gaming system) got really interested in the technical/science side of electronics and engineering. We snap up any old motor-based toy that we can find from flea markets and he has been taking them apart and soldering them together and making the coolest things. He and my husband worked all year on making him a Tetris electronic game, from scratch. I have no idea about technicalities, but they spent long hours with wires and motherboards and a sodoring iron and they did it. Next he would like to build a motor to power his bike; they are in the planning stages on that one. We also subscribed to Kiwicrates for him; they send a STEM project once a month. It's expensive, and he has been paying for (most of) it himself, with money he's saves up. He loves the kits, actually, all my boys are enjoying the things he makes. Another one of my boys has always been particularly artistic; he's little still, but we are providing him with high-quality art supplies and will (hopefully!) find him lessons soon. All of my kids actually love art, and we do a lot of painting and drawing and creating. Some of my boys enjoy athletics; we are encouraging that too. We also found and dragged home a huge electronic organ (very long story, we found it in a dumpster and took a chance that it would work. There are a few stuck keys, but most of it works great!) hoping someone would develop an interest in playing. So far no one is showing more than cursory interest, so we'll be getting rid of it soon.

The 'Chaos' thread touched a nerve for me too. It's a strange town we're raising our kids in. The high school schedules sound insane to me. I'm not sure what we'll do at that point. For now though, we're focusing on developing and nurturing thier curiosity and creativity.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 7:29 am

In my area I see a lot of high school age boys running camps for younger boys, with one adult supervising the group. They've taken over all of the parks, and it's nice that the younger ones are getting to run around while the moms are cleaning and cooking. I see older girls doing similar camps with little girls.

As for hobbies and sports, not all families have the money to invest in things like that. The event was a great thing, because it was only $10, and a lot of boys used their own allowance money to buy tickets.

I still don't understand what is wrong with a bunch of bochurim listening to a male Orthodox Jewish singer singing Jewish non-secular music. Does that really qualify as a "concert" that should be banned?

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 7:40 am

I am raising 3 yeshivish teens, and the lack of outlets is a huge problem.

We sent them to 3 different high schools for various reasons.

The son in the most yeshivish high school found a ping pong table that a neighbor of the Yeshiva was throwing out, and the boys wanted to bring it into the dorm, but the hanhala didn't let. He left that Yeshiva and is now in a small Yeshiva where he goes to Jitsu classes in the evening in Lakewood.

One of my other sons binds books and seforim as a hobby and business.

My other son learns and learns; however not every boy can do that, and the yeshivish system is geared towards those who can.

The lack of outlets is a serious problem for yehshivish Boys.

We are raising ALL of our boys the way 1-3 of the best boys PER TOWN were raised in Europe. The rest helped with the family business and learned part time. Only the ones who were geniuses were sent to Yeshiva full time as teens.

DVOM

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:06 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

What explanation did they give for not allowing it? I'm curious to understand the thought process.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:06 am

DVOM, your boys are lucky to have you!

It's interesting that I moved from New York to Lakewood over twenty years ago for just this reason. My husband and I felt that New York was too much "in the box" and we wanted our boys to have more freedom (Lakewood was perceived as a bit more "OOT" at the time). I remember when I first drove into Lakewood and I saw a father and son fishing together at the lake, I turned to my husband and said - this is where I want to raise my boys. The yeshiva was not as pressured as the yeshiva they were in in New York, and the whole lifestyle seemed calmer and simpler.

But of course, no place is perfect and like many of you, I think that there is a lot or room for improvement. My boys were not necessarily drawn to the idea of a concert, so this is not my issue, but I do see the necessity of more freedom, more outlets. I remember when Avos U'bonim first started, (I know, all of you absolutely think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread), but my husband and I were furious. They have one evening a week off (they have school every day of the week) and you have to chase them on motzei Shabbos too?

I do want to point out though, that there are opportunities for hobbies and the like (parents have to be aggressive about it though). A friend of mine sends her son to - I think it's judo? lessons, others feel that joining a gym is a bit of an outlet.... my boys are mostly into sedentary stuff like drawing (I still have some really nice comic books that my older boys put together), writing, playing music, reading (and electronic games) but I do see the problem for boys who are by nature more active.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:13 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

I also have all kinds of sons. One of my sons had a skateboard which he used a lot around the neighborhood. Not sure why that should be a problem... I don't get why ping pong is a problem either. It totally doesn't make sense.

I like that your son binds books as a hobby and a business! That's really nice!

I don't really see, practically, how we can set up the kind of system where boys go to work at 15. Besides for the fact that in the US, people are in school until way into their twenties, I just don't see myself putting a teen-age boy into the kind of environment that is out there today... I don't know if there is a solution. Maybe there really isn't.

DVOM

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:21 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

If I was designing a perfect boys high school, it would be on a 9:00am to 5:00pm schedule. Perhaps one or two evenings a week the boys could go back to school from 8-10pm for some sort of extra learning, but it would be OPTIONAL. There would be other OPTIONAL classes held at that time too: photography, STEM, art, karate, sports teams, gardening, cooking, small business coaching, whatever. There would be a regular secular studies curriculum. I don't care if it's basic and short (2.5 hours a day of language arts, math, science, history) but I'd want it taught well and taken seriously. School would be in session until perhaps two days before Pesach.

Do schools like this exist?

dancingqueen

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:31 am

DVOM wrote:

Yup. MO schools.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:31 am

DVOM wrote:

DH went to such a school in London. Had solid English classes, no evening learning or Mishmar. Was considered a very frum school. (Not to worry- it had plenty of other issues...)

He simply gapes when he sees the buses pull up at 8,9, 10 even in the evening and the HS boys get off.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:33 am

DVOM wrote:

Maybe they exist, but not in Lakewood.

I do think, though, that 9 to 5 is a bit too short. Most schools start at 7:30 to 7:45 for davening - which makes sense. It doesn't seem to make sense to start davening at 9:00. As for finishing at 5:00 - I don't know how old your sons are, but I remember that when my sons were in seventh and eight grade, they came home at around 5:00 and they had so much free time that I was - almost - literally tearing my hair out. For some reason the Rebbeim/teachers have given up on homework at this point (honestly, I think it's a non-issue because only one of my boys actually did homework without serious bribery) and they had WAAY to much free time. At least that's what I thought.

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:37 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, who's about 60, said that in his time, h.s. ended at 6:00. If you were a masmid you stayed for a mini shiur till 6:20. Now, with night seder, everyone's there till maariv, and if you're a masmid you learn an extra 20 minutes till...10:20?

That said, I think there's a middle ground. I think it's good to encourage the boys to get some nighttime learning in - vehagisa bo yomam v'layla; remember, these boys will be 17/18 when they graduate. But what else filled their time? Probably homework, because everyone had stronger general studies curricula. But TV also.

You, DVOM, and others, are beacons of light, and I hope a lot of people take a page from you.

L25

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:43 am

I believe a different poster said that the reasoning she was given why her boys shouldn't go its that since the beis hamikdash was destroyed we don't have concerts just "stam"- it has to be for chol hamoed, I think fundraiser etc. but this wasn't for that. If that's true it could be that the boys having a way to "chill" wasn't the issue

mommyg8- we don't have boys but my dh is very grateful that we only have girls because he is really not a proponent of the boys school setup, he would totally agree with you about the father learning thing.

dvom- we are totally with you with the limiting screen time and filling the time with learning experiences including hobbies instead and yes we definitely spend significant amount of time and money on it! My dh told my then 8 yo dd when she asked that he wants her to get to "experience" life instead of sitting and watching the characters experience it. Thank G-d she thinks she has an "awesome" life and feels bad for kids who just sit in front of the screen for hours.

I also think if boys aren't given outlets then they are more likely to use things that don't require thought or skill like movies to chill. I think someone once said it's because their husband was never encouraged to learn productive ways to spend their free time, were always told to learn that they never got hobbies. I would so much more prefer for my husband and sons if I have to be involved in a hobby then sit there watching movies which in my mind many run counter to the kedusha I would want in my home.