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Does suffering purify?
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 7:34 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Seems like a spin to me. To attribute all the bad things that happen in this world, from poverty, illness, not finding a shidduch, infertility, mental health issues, and suggest that hashem gave it to us to grow.....Seems weak to me. Really, what would you tell the 45 year old single or the 50 year old couple who can't have children? Do you honestly feel they've "grown" from their experience?


Hashem wants us to serve him with what He bestows on us so the person in the bad situation should ask himself how he can turn something negative into something positive. My brother never married but got the family that he wanted by adopting from foster care. There are loads and loads of kids, and in some places Jewish kids, who could give the people in your examples the chance to be parents.
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:26 am
southernbubby wrote:
Hashem wants us to serve him with what He bestows on us so the person in the bad situation should ask himself how he can turn something negative into something positive. My brother never married but got the family that he wanted by adopting from foster care. There are loads and loads of kids, and in some places Jewish kids, who could give the people in your examples the chance to be parents.



Your attempting to make sense out pf the impossible by saying things that we've been taught since a young age that don't really make sense. First of all, why doesnt hashem give everyone a hardship such as no shidduch, illness, infertility, ect. And no, not everyone has an issue like this. Secondly, is hashem trying to test a newborn baby by making it suffer? What is this test about? The truth is that for better or worse, we have no understanding of the ways of hashem. We try to make sense of things to make ourselves feel better, but we are only fooling ourselves. We just don't know.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:54 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Your attempting to make sense out pf the impossible by saying things that we've been taught since a young age that don't really make sense. First of all, why doesnt hashem give everyone a hardship such as no shidduch, illness, infertility, ect. And no, not everyone has an issue like this. Secondly, is hashem trying to test a newborn baby by making it suffer? What is this test about? The truth is that for better or worse, we have no understanding of the ways of hashem. We try to make sense of things to make ourselves feel better, but we are only fooling ourselves. We just don't know.


You are wrong. EVERYONE has hardships. Just because you don’t see them, doesn’t mean they are not there.
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:10 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
You are wrong. EVERYONE has hardships. Just because you don’t see them, doesn’t mean they are not there.




I agree that everyone has hardships. I don't believe that everyone has "high level" hardships such as death in the family, older person never finding a shidduch, not having any children, chronic debilitating illness, or extreme poverty. I'm not minimizing the person with some social anxiety or who feels they don't have enough friends. That hurts as well. But it's not comparable to a young family that lost a parent.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:28 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Disclaimer: I didn't read his book. However, I would imagine that lots of his understanding comes from things he learnt in sefarim which all lead to the idea that suffering has certain benefits. The issue I have is that it always comes down to "it says in a sefer". To some, this is a legitimate strong argument. To others like myself, I still ask, well how do they know? The only answer is that they have ruach hakodesh.

I watched a shiur recently on emunah by rabbi yy jacobson. He was discussing how we know hashem loves us. He mostly said 2 answers:

1. We should feel it.
2. He quoted a dozen(s) of places where it basically says hashem loves us. Again to some, that's legitimate proof. To others, we ask, how do they know?


I really need to finish the book, and do chazara on what I read.
The book was written posthumously, based on Rabbi Kirzner's shiurim, many of them given while he was battling cancer.

The first chapter, Laying the Foundations, talks about how Hashem wants a relationship with us so we need to live with meaning. I love this line: "Those who think our connection to G-d is one of obligation only - I am commanded therefore I obey - tear the soul out of Judaism."

Of course we do mitzvos as faithful soldiers. And sometimes a mitzvah can be hard and we do it saying, Hashem, I'm doing it because you told me to and I will try to fulfill it according to directions, but I can't do more. And that's a beautiful thing.

But yes, Rabbi YY is right. There are dozens of places that talk about Hashem's love for us. This is the yom tov of zacharti lach chesed ne'urayich, ahavas kelulosayich.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 11:10 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Your attempting to make sense out pf the impossible by saying things that we've been taught since a young age that don't really make sense. First of all, why doesnt hashem give everyone a hardship such as no shidduch, illness, infertility, ect. And no, not everyone has an issue like this. Secondly, is hashem trying to test a newborn baby by making it suffer? What is this test about? The truth is that for better or worse, we have no understanding of the ways of hashem. We try to make sense of things to make ourselves feel better, but we are only fooling ourselves. We just don't know.


Look at all of the good organizations that were founded in memory of people who passed away, some of them in tragic ways. We have no answer as to why tragedy happens but we may be able to choose a way to somewhat turn it into good. My brother was not given a chance to get married but made the choice to adopt. Not everyone has that choice either.

ETA, babies suffer from normal babyhood but if they are cared they learn how to trust and form emotional bonds.
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amother




Olive


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 5:46 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
I think this is something people like to tell themselves to make them feel better. The truth is noone really knows why suffering exists, why evil and hardship exists.


You’re wrong and I don’t know how you repeat things that have no basis in Torah, suffering is known to be mechaper for sins committed in this life and previous lives. Do some learning and you’ll widen your knowledge so you can discuss concepts like this.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 6:10 pm
Amother olive, I think it's legitimate to ask for sources.

Let's remember that someone who is seriously asking about this sugya might be experiencing it...
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amother




Gray


Post  Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:29 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
You’re wrong and I don’t know how you repeat things that have no basis in Torah, suffering is known to be mechaper for sins committed in this life and previous lives. Do some learning and you’ll widen your knowledge so you can discuss concepts like this.


How nice that you have the answer to a problem that has confounded great minds for millennia.

Theodicy, the problem of tzaddik ve-ra lo, doesn't have an easy answer. Yes, maybe suffering sometimes acts to purify. If so, why don't we all merit to suffer? Why would a newborn come into the world with a disease that causes pain?

It's quite consistent with Torah (and basic humility) to say that we just don't have the answers.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Apr 23 2019, 9:00 am
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
How nice that you have the answer to a problem that has confounded great minds for millennia.

Theodicy, the problem of tzaddik ve-ra lo, doesn't have an easy answer. Yes, maybe suffering sometimes acts to purify. If so, why don't we all merit to suffer? Why would a newborn come into the world with a disease that causes pain?

It's quite consistent with Torah (and basic humility) to say that we just don't have the answers.


But also consistent with Torah and basic humility is the firm conviction that there are answers.
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amother




Tan


Post  Wed, Apr 24 2019, 9:10 am
I personally found inspiration in Tehillim 92 with translation and commentary
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Apr 24 2019, 9:14 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Disclaimer: I didn't read his book. However, I would imagine that lots of his understanding comes from things he learnt in sefarim which all lead to the idea that suffering has certain benefits. The issue I have is that it always comes down to "it says in a sefer". To some, this is a legitimate strong argument. To others like myself, I still ask, well how do they know? The only answer is that they have ruach hakodesh.

I watched a shiur recently on emunah by rabbi yy jacobson. He was discussing how we know hashem loves us. He mostly said 2 answers:

1. We should feel it.
2. He quoted a dozen(s) of places where it basically says hashem loves us. Again to some, that's legitimate proof. To others, we ask, how do they know?


For the last few days, I've been saying Atah bechartanu...Ahavta osanu. Not to mention the daily Ahava raba.
I put a lot of stock in what the Anshei kneses hagedola chose to have us say l'doros.
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