What would it take for you to make Aliyah?

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, May 06 2019, 6:31 am

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

Well, If Israel was run the way it was back then... I would probably be there. But it's not. I'm not gonna have a Zionist discussion with you.

Israel in the Talmudic era was ruled by the Romans and later their Byzantine heirs. These were not dynasties known for their friendliness to Jews.

moonstone

Mon, May 06 2019, 7:13 am

notshanarishona wrote:

I never said they don't exist in the U.S. but that b"H most serious bachurim are able to stay sheltered in their yeshivos without being exposed to it. The immoral world is all part of the reason the kollel lifestyle started , is that the men needed to learn more Torah and be more sheltered to counteract what they will be exposed too. An 18 year old still has more personal growth and learning needed before he is strong enough to go into the outside world and not be affected .

And I thought it was to avoid the draft during the Vietnam War. At least that's what I've read on imamother.

And personally, I don't think this oversheltering and making people avoid "the immoral world" (what an odd concept) does anyone any good. On the contrary, I think it's harmful to the individual and to society in general. But we clearly live in completely different worlds and will never agree on that.

Last edited by moonstone on Mon, May 06 2019, 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Mon, May 06 2019, 7:20 am

IrenaFr wrote:

It’s not the statistics of being hurt from the terrorism , it’s the constant need to be on guard , always thinking of what to do and where to run . Right now 2 millions people in Israel living in huge stress - again . They don’t sleep as usual , they life is disturbed, no schools, parents have to work, they worried about their children, people really suffer . Even if there a only a few were killed . It’s a BIG DEAL.

When I came here, I was very nervous seeing someone with a big bag entering the bus . Like a few years after the war I couldn’t stand sound of ambulance sirens .All those small details that you don’t notice when you live in PEACE.
So I really was hurt and traumatized by living in Israel Sad

For me many Israelis are real heroes. But not everyone can be so brave.

On the one hand, I agree with you.

On the other hand, it's frustrating that you're making this out to be a debate where people who disagree with you are claiming terrorism isn't a big deal. Nobody is saying that. I live here, I know that terrorism is scary. I've said that it's scary.

I don't disagree that some people are more traumatized than others. I've never said here (or anywhere) that trauma isn't a legitimate outcome of experiencing terrorism.

(This whole debate started because someone said she doesn't understand the fear of war, and doesn't see it in the bigger cities. OK, I see how that can be taken as dismissive, but I don't think that's the only way to read it. Just because most people aren't traumatized, doesn't mean that people who are traumatized are making things up. It's just giving a different perspective.)

imasoftov

Mon, May 06 2019, 11:24 am

etky wrote:

No, we don't
But we have the words of the nevi'im that are enshrined in tanach - and many of them have materialized and are coming true before our eyes. That alone is a tremendous signifier that change is afoot.
IDK, if so many of am Yisrael ignored the call to return during Bayit Sheni -at the period when we still had actual, live nevuah, I guess it's not all that shocking that history is repeating itself now.

Did a navi issue such a call at the time?

amother

Lawngreen

Mon, May 06 2019, 11:37 am

imasoftov wrote:

Did a navi issue such a call at the time?

More importantly, did a navi issue such a call in our time?

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, May 06 2019, 12:06 pm

And why would you need a Navi? Hashem hands over the land and that's not enough? Koresh gave permission to build the mikdash, and Ezra and company got to work immediately. Now, maybe it's a mistake to build the mikdash first and the state afterwards.

Yehoshua first conquered the land. Jews lived in Israel and settled the country for over 400 years before building a mikdash.

It's been 99 years since the San Remo conference set aside the land of Israel for the Jews. It's been 71 years since 600,000 Jews fought off seven nations (could the numbers be more Biblical?!) to establish a state. It's 51 years since Jews took control of Yerushalayim and Chevron and Shechem.

Other than moving Target's headquarters to Tel Aviv, what would it take to realize that we're being called home?

DrMom

Mon, May 06 2019, 12:48 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

No. I don't want to make Aliyah because I enjoy my life here.
This was what I saw happening and it was never the life I aspired to have. Living in Israel,not being able to have a regular job, being poor etc.
I worked hard for the life I have here, I have a good job, nice apartment, I like my neighbours.. we're staying here. When we miss Israel, we book a flight and go there on vacation.

So why didn't you just say that instead of all the nonsense about not making aliyah because illegal job-holders are not granted full maternity leave?

And why do you assume you will be poor and unemployed in Israel? Again, this seems like another convenient assumption on your part to justify the fact that you just want to stay put in galut.

For the record, when most serious people come on aliyah from First World countries, they do so in an organized manner designed to maximize the probability their aliyah will be successful. They make a pilot trip, scope out job options months ahead of time, establish professional contacts, meet with an aliyah counselor to discuss employment options, have a financial plan, etc etc.

They don't just show up and take low-paying, under-the-table jobs, get pregnant, and lament the lack of maternity leave.

etky

Mon, May 06 2019, 1:11 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Did a navi issue such a call at the time?

The overwhelming majority of Babylonian Jewry ignored the 'main event' of Jewish history that was taking place during their lifetime - the return to Zon and the reconstruction of the Temple. The had put down roots in Babylon and were doing well there. Some gave generous donations towards the building of the Temple but few could actually bestir themselves to return.
Only some tens of thousands - a ragtag assemblage of the lowest classes + a good number of Kohanim and some levi'im (who were also reluctant) joined the various waves of aliya commencing with Zerubavel and Shesbazar and continuing during the period of Ezra and Nechemiah.
The nevii'im of the post-exilic period: Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi are concerned with what is going on in Eretz Yisrael and address Olei Bavel and the other Jews who live there. They convey, among other messages, Hashem's encouragement to the Jews of Eretz Yisrael to take heart and to persevere with the construction of the Temple despite the tremendous difficulties.
The return to Zion and the goings-on there, especially the construction of the Temple, were the focus of the prophets and leaders of the time and the sages involved later in the canonization of Tanach also obviously viewed Shivat Tzion as the main thrust of Jewish history. Divrey Hayamim - the book that concludes tanach ends with the word ויעל - with the exhortation to make aliya included in the famous declaration of Cyrus.

etky

Mon, May 06 2019, 1:21 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

More importantly, did a navi issue such a call in our time?

What do you think the purpose of the inclusion of the words of the nevi'im in tanach is? So that we have something to read in shul after the Torah reading so that the men can slip out to Kiddush club?
The sages who canonized the words of Yishayahu, Yirmiyahu, Yechezkel and the 12 minor prophets did so to hand down a message - Hashem's words - through the generations, to sustain us and inform our spiritual/religious lives even in the absence of current prophecy.
Unfortunately there are no nevi'im around today.
But prophecy is abundant in Tanach and many of the נבואות נחמה that appear there have happened and are happening before our eyes.

gingertop

Mon, May 06 2019, 1:40 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

More importantly, did a navi issue such a call in our time?

ויהי איש אחד מן הרמתים צופים אחד ממאתים צופים שנתנבאו להם לישראל מיהוה טובא הוו כדתניא הרבה נביאים עמדו להם לישראל כפלים כיוצאי מצרים אלא נבואה שהוצרכה לדורות נכתבה ושלא הוצרכה לא נכתבה

מגילה יד

gingertop

Mon, May 06 2019, 2:02 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

Well, If Israel was run the way it was back then... I would probably be there. But it's not. I'm not gonna have a Zionist discussion with you.

Non-Zionist, not aliya promoting lady here

Israel is run better than it ever was in any time from after the destruction of the first beis hamikdash. There is freedom of religion + a healthy respect for Jewish tradition. I wouldn't want anything else (Yes, I'm a rabbanut hater as well, but its issues are how meddlesome it is and the chillul hashem it causes. If you want even more theocracy, we will have to agree to disagree.) Things were not great during Ottoman or British Empire days. Being drafted to the Ottoman army didn't come with a kosher food option and the British colonized by missionizing. And Jewish blood was beyond cheap. For a completely non-Zionist idea of what was going on in those times, read "Guardian of Jerusalem" about Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld. His chibas tzion was unbelievable even as he fought against the Zionist version of a state. One of his many frustrations were that Jews from his part of the world (Czechoslovakia, Hungary) were not making aliya despite the urgings of the Chassam Sofer. Life was much more comfortable for Jews there than it was in the Pale and Eastern Poland.

I don't think aliya is for everyone but that doesn't mean that I have to take all the negativity about my country lying down. For one, this is the eretz chemda tova u'rechava that Hashem promised to our ancestors, that Moshe pleaded to enter, for which my greatgrandparents risked arrest in the Pale of Settlement when they scrimped together a few groshen they could ill afford to send to the fledgling yishuv.

For another, approximately 6.5 million Jews live in Israel (ken yirbu), of every type and stripe and some of the bigotry towards them is appalling. For the record, I am not keeping track of who said what, and most of the entries on this thread were nice. But I did get the feeling that some posters here hold a third of the world Jewish population in contempt. There were some hotheaded comments from both sides so I understand that people felt attacked and defensive. Still and all. We are attacked enough by enemies and shrugged off by supposed allies that I think we should all try to be a bit less prejudiced about Jews from different places.

heidi

Mon, May 06 2019, 3:17 pm

Gingertop, I heard on the radio this morning that the number of Jews in Israel is over 7 million

gingertop

Mon, May 06 2019, 3:25 pm

heidi wrote:

Gingertop, I heard on the radio this morning that the number of Jews in Israel is over 7 million

Wow! Bli ayin hara.

יוסף ה' עליכם עליכם ועל בניכם ברוכים אתם לה' עושה שמים וארץ

imasoftov

Tue, May 07 2019, 6:27 am

gingertop wrote:

I'm familiar with the source but I don't know what use you're trying to make of it.

SacN

Tue, May 07 2019, 10:02 am

Quote:

I don't think aliya is for everyone but that doesn't mean that I have to take all the negativity about my country lying down. For one, this is the eretz chemda tova u'rechava that Hashem promised to our ancestors, that Moshe pleaded to enter, for which my greatgrandparents risked arrest in the Pale of Settlement when they scrimped together a few groshen they could ill afford to send to the fledgling yishuv.

For another, approximately 6.5 million Jews live in Israel (ken yirbu), of every type and stripe and some of the bigotry towards them is appalling. For the record, I am not keeping track of who said what, and most of the entries on this thread were nice. But I did get the feeling that some posters here hold a third of the world Jewish population in contempt. There were some hotheaded comments from both sides so I understand that people felt attacked and defensive. Still and all. We are attacked enough by enemies and shrugged off by supposed allies that I think we should all try to be a bit less prejudiced about Jews from different places.

I couldn't like this twice, so I'm reposting.
I live in Israel, am charedi/yeshivaish, work at a high paying respected Israeli job (as does my husband), and didn't speak 5 words of Hebrew when I moved here.
Since coming, my husband recertifed, I got my MA, and we are middle to upper middle class and live in a religious neighborhood in the mercaz. I learned Hebrew largely from schmoozing with the other moms in the park. I was here, newly, for the last War, and spent quite a lot of time in the stairwell with my neighbors. I navigate the Israeli school system to get my kids the services they need. I'm here largely without family (though my younger sister lives near me now), and I bH see the charedi world changing, step by step.

Anyone who says it's easy either had it exceptionally easy (perhaps had a job and spoke Hebrew) or is looking back with nostalgia.

Anyone who says it's impossible or terrible probably/certainly didn't feel comfortable trying to truly integrate.

But let's all acknowledge that every olah/oleh we know has a special kind of adaptability and gumption and resourcefulness that not everyone has. It's a gift, that ability to say yalla, kadima, and not even every native born Israeli has it, but every successful aliyah must include it. Many chutznikim don't. And those people have a hard time making aliyah work for them.

But please, no lashon hara and stop the stereotypes.

mandksima

Tue, May 07 2019, 4:55 pm

I remember my life pre-aliyah (before the idea even entered into our minds and we were renovating an old house that we thought we'd live in forever) and I'm trying to compare it to my post-aliyah mindset. On one hand, I really get religious Jews who have no desire or thought of aliyah and maybe not to even visit Israel. That is because I wasn't ever taught the reasons why to live there or why to love it or even that most consider it a mitzvah and certainly not that many consider it an integral part of being a religious Jew (to at least yearn to be there if you can't go immediately.) I wasn't taught it in my yeshivish religious day school, not in a yeshiva girls high school, not even in seminary when I was living here for an entire year. It wasn't preached about in any shul I went to and I never attended a lecture about it. It was never spoken about as somewhere for an American to move to permanently beyond a year after marriage, if lucky. So, I really do feel for those who were raised like me. You can't yearn to move to a place where you can't imagine living without everything you know and are familiar with. You can't even understand what it means for the moshiach process to be in the middle of playing out when you don't think of it in that way. You know it will be a different place when moshiach comes and therefore will happily wait to be taken there with everyone else. Most of my extended family feels like this so I get it.

When I compare my post-aliyah (how we came to make aliyah is another story) mindset and all the wonderful things I have learned Torah-wise since which opened my eyes and heart to the most beautiful ways to feel close to Hashem and all of Am Yisrael, I wonder at HOW my education was able to skip such an important issue! When I read wonderful books like To Dwell in the Palace, Em HaBanim Semichah, Eretz Yisrael in the Parsha, etc and listen to countless shiurim and read article upon article on the subject today, I gape in astonishment that I was never taught any of it during my first 30 years! I learned how to practice doing mitzvot but not where they were meant for in the first place. For instance, we just read parshat kedoshim here. We are taught the mitzvah in three parts that only applies fully in EY - to come to Israel, to plant a tree and to keep the mitzvah of orlah on it. You can keep orlah outside of EY but there is no mitzvah to plant a tree outside it. Why is it a mitzvah? We are commanded to be holy like Hashem. How can we be holy? By doing like He does. He planted a garden in Eden. So, when we plant a garden in EY, we emulate Him and become holy like Him. Outside EY is not holy and therefore, no mitzvah, not even necessary to practice. That's just planting a tree. We plant our lives, have children here and raise them, think how much more holy that is! There really is something to the daily birkat kohanim here. The simcha EY gives is palatable if you are willing to feel it. Think how many more blessings are bestowed upon the Jews here when we get them so often. Maybe that's why EY is so miracle prone.

There's so much I could say but it boils down to this. Eretz Yisrael is such a special place and when it calls to you, it calls hard and it makes it feel as if you can't breathe or function anywhere else. If you haven't gotten that call, you just won't understand the same. It's not logical and you can't rationalize it. No sense looking down at anyone else, it just isn't a thing you can explain, you have to feel it. Once you have had your eyes opened to the reality of what uniqueness EY holds, you can never desire to leave but only do so if necessary with bated breath until you return. Not everyone gets that calling and I don't know why some get now and some don't. Perhaps it is those reincarnated souls who didn't come in a previous life and must make up for it. Every soul must fulfill every mitzvah in deed, thought and intention at least once throughout all reincarnations and many of those mitzvot can only be performed here. Maybe I was one who refused to come in Ezra's time? Maybe that's why I needed to come now? I am not claiming I am more righteous than anyone else because I have come here. Perhaps I disappointed Hashem before when I stayed in Bavel. Hashem has made it easy for me to want to be here as the pull was so strong. I truly believe Ey only works out for those who truly yearn to be here no matter what and make it work. No need for complaining when you really want to be here. I can't say I forged this connection immediately upon arrival but I really did feel I came home and there was no going back to a place that wasn't home anymore so everything had to work out.

I still don't understand how current rabbinical leaders of today feel about making sure Jews don't repeat the sin of the miraglim/spies (convincing everyone else EY is bad and not worth going into) and the mistake of the Jews not all returning in Ezra's time. We are told moshiach would have come then if they did and the second beit hamikdash would have lasted forever just like if the sin of the miraglim didn't happen, we would have been immediately sent to the era of moshiach. So, we see how not coming happily as a united people has delayed moshiach and therefore the glory of Hashem to be spread upon the whole world. That is a chillul Hashem in itself. Each of us has some blame in every tragedy that has occurred since as we could have prevented them all and saved a lot of sadness and pain for everyone. We were all there on har sinai and have returned today in everyone in this generation in order to rectify all of our past mistakes. I have to assume not coming to EY when called by Ezra as well as accepting the lashon hara of the spies were pretty big mistakes to now rectify. There are many rabbis in Israel who are begging those outside to come home. They are just not heard very well unless one wants to hear. We are taught that before moshiach comes, many orthodox rabbis will be falsely leading their followers and will be shown to be part of the erev rav. It is hard to know who we can trust to lead us in the right path. We can only trust what we know to be true from the Torah and from our sages. All of the previous generation rabbeim yearned to be here and tried to convince their fellow Jews to come. They just weren't listened to because life was harder here and when they decided too late they couldn't leave anymore. Like another poster mentioned, we are told yetziat mitzrayim will mimic the time before moshiach/moshiach's arrival when 4/5ths refused to leave. They didn't trust Moshe rabbeinu and couldn't let go of their comfort. So, 4/5ths again won't want to leave. I hope this time, Hashem pulls them out regardless and we can all enjoy the new era. Wouldn't any frum Jew today want to be one of the 1/5th who left though? We also learn that many will reject moshiach when he is revealed just like they did Moshe and will fight against coming to EY. So, who says everyone will just magically arrive then? Many so-called frum rabbis as well will mislead so it won't be easy to trust them for guidance. Just call out to Hashem for yourself and ask for help. We can do that now as well and ask Hashem to show us if it is right for us to come to EY now. Daven for clarity in the issue.

I fully believe I am giving my children the best life they could ever have here. No doubt at all. I raised two there till age 5 when we came and I am so grateful to raise the others here from birth. It is like I am in the palace of the king. I'll take any room I can and BH, we were actually blessed to buy our own little place here. I would have still come and been grateful to rent forever if that was my only option. I thank Hashem every moment I can that I have been given the zechut to be here and especially to have children born here so they can experience the spiritual benefit from day one. The astronomical amount that I feel this zechut is worth helps me realize that there is nothing significant to put on a list of things I wish I could return to back in America or bring here. Life doesn't have to be easy here. I don't believe we are put in this world to make our lives the most comfortable and relaxed. I believe we are put here to reach our potential and I feel there is no air elsewhere in the world that will help rejuvenate me enough to get to where Hashem knows I can get to like I can here. My feet literally step in the footprints of the avot. I love every Jew here. It doesn't matter if they're religious or not religious yet. They all have a special spark here, a fiery love for one another who shows up mostly when there is a huge threat around. We all take care of each other when we're needed. I love being surrounded by all of my fellow Jews, my brothers and sisters here. We don't have to get along like in any big family, that's normal. What's important is that we are all together. I can't imagine the feeling of achdut when all Jews come and Hashem has the nachat like a father with all of his children by his side. I really feel that with each new arrival Jew comes here, Hashem feels more and more nachat. So, yes, some do have to sacrifice but you are sacrificing some of your pleasure in order to add to Hashem's. For me, I don't feel like anything is a sacrifice anymore. I'm just so ecstatic to be here and it hasn't worn off in almost 13 years. It actually gets stronger every day. When I say modeh ani, I think two things. Thank you Hashem for letting me wake up to a new day and thank you Hashem for letting me wake up here in EY!! When I think what my life would have been like if I wouldn't have come, I cry thinking of the regret and time lost here!

I can't currently relate to those who see no specialness in being in Hashem's land especially at a time when we are so close to the end of the moshiach process where he will be revealed soon and want a first row seat. (Maybe listen a Rabbi Kessin shiur for more info.) I feel for those who want to come but can't yet and I really feel for those who haven't even heard the call yet. Some just have to put on their listening hat...

I know the point of this thread was what would it take for you to come...so my answer is that it should only take a change of attitude and gratuity for a gift that has already been earmarked for you. Imagine in olam haba, being shown a billion dollar lottery ticket (not anywhere equivalent to the zechut of living here) that was always yours but just never claimed!

amother

Smokey

Tue, May 07 2019, 7:57 pm

I am a very sensitive person and feel uncomfortable with the Israeli people way of talking.

hotzenplotz

Tue, May 07 2019, 7:59 pm

SacN wrote:

Quote:

The maloch of agmos nefesh has not skipped over Americans, unlike many in Israel like to believe.

sneakermom

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:07 pm

I haven’t been in Israel in twenty years. How I miss it! How I wish to stand by the Kotel and lean my head against the wall. And pray.
I would love to walk all over yerushalayim.
And eat Israeli food.
And just breathe in the air.

So what would make me move there?

I feel my tafkid is here. With the work that I do. In the family I am beholden to here.

If that changed. And I felt I could do more good in Israel then my mind would shift in that direction.

.

cbsp

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:43 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Just wanted to add, that although civil marriage is a HUGE issue, in many other spheres, government is not that involved.

You can buy nonkosher food (in fact, it's often a challenge to find a kosher restaurant in places like Tel Aviv). You can drive all Shabbat. You can find bread in many, many places on Pesach (technically I believe it may not be legal, but a blind eye is turned - I saw loaves and loaves being sold in Sarona in Tel Aviv this pesach).

You can have a relationship and live with whoever you want (again, if you want to be married, you need to go abroad). But let's say you are a divorced woman living with a Cohen, and you don't feel like flying to Cyprus to get married - you can be recognized by the court as common-law (it's automatic after a certain number of years anyway).

Openly gay men can walk hand-in-hand in the street without a religious gov't telling them it's an abomination. Women can wear whatever they want (unless they make the unfortunate choice of walking in the nasty neighbourhoods of Ramat Beit Shemesh or Meah Shearim, where even a skirt and mitpachat might not be enough to save them from curses and spit).

You can send to totally secular schools.

So I think it's a misrepresentation to say that gov't regulates religion here. The big, huge problem is marriage, and even more so divorce. Otherwise, there are issues like not enough public transport on Shabbat (if at all, in some places), and stores having to close on Yom Kippur. The latter should not be an issue - it's one day, and it's not such a huge sacrifice to make in honor of tradition. The former is relevant for the poorer sectors who rely on public transport, but honestly I don't know how much of an issue it really is.

And you lost me (and many others) with this post. Eretz Yisroel is the land of kedusha.

We're waiting for Moshiach so that it will be "u'malah aretz de'ah es Hashem" - and that's what will change.

I spent two summers as a young teen in Netanya - the chilul Shabbos seen there saddened me more than anything I had seen back in the States - everyone around was Jewish (this was mid to late 80s).

The fact that the Shalva choir can't perform in Eurovision because they won't be mechallel Shabbos for the last rehearsal speaks volumes (well, the fact that there even is Eurovision in Israel speaks volumes) about what the State of Israel has to say about the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel.

The potential for mitzvos there is tremendous. And the consequences for messing up there is just as great.

Our derech is that while it's ikvisa d'mashicha (footsteps of Mashiach) it's not his'chalta d'geulah. So the State of Israel is still Golus. While there are still opportunities to do many mitzvos in Eretz Yisroel - each step taken there is another mitzvah! - there is no aveirah being done by not moving there. We're not disregarding a Navi's call by staying in chutz la'aretz.

Do not dare compare us to the Yidden who didn't want to leave Mitzrayim or wanted to return for the leeks and garlic! There is however precedent from those days for Yidden who attempted to leave Golus and enter EY prematurely - how come that's never mentioned?