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What would it take for you to make Aliyah?
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gingertop




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 07 2019, 10:42 pm
Slightly O/T but in the spirit of how some people view all Israelis as one cohesive body of sameness:

Bill Burr just did a performance in Tel Aviv.

He said "You guys are either super liberal or your wife has to walk 20 feet behind you. Can't figure it out."

Very Happy
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 1:44 am
cbsp wrote:

Do not dare compare us to the Yidden who didn't want to leave Mitzrayim or wanted to return for the leeks and garlic! There is however precedent from those days for Yidden who attempted to leave Golus and enter EY prematurely - how come that's never mentioned?


What's the analogy with the State of Israel?
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 1:56 am
cbsp wrote:

Do not dare compare us to the Yidden who didn't want to leave Mitzrayim or wanted to return for the leeks and garlic! There is however precedent from those days for Yidden who attempted to leave Golus and enter EY prematurely - how come that's never mentioned?


Hashem specifically told those people not to go. Totally different situation.

I'm not sure why you think sitting back and waiting for everyone in Israel to be frum is a reasonable or effective approach. There were plenty of Jewish kings who worshipped avoda zara. Public concert rehearsals on shabbos aren't exactly comparable. If you want to shape Israeli society, you have to be in Israel.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 2:26 am
cbsp wrote:


The fact that the Shalva choir can't perform in Eurovision because they won't be mechallel Shabbos for the last rehearsal speaks volumes (well, the fact that there even is Eurovision in Israel speaks volumes) about what the State of Israel has to say about the kedusha of Eretz Yisroel.



This. I live in Israel and I love my life here. But you can't refute this, Its sad.
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Israeli_C




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 2:30 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
I'm not sure why you think sitting back and waiting for everyone in Israel to be frum is a reasonable or effective approach. There were plenty of Jewish kings who worshipped avoda zara. Public concert rehearsals on shabbos aren't exactly comparable. If you want to shape Israeli society, you have to be in Israel.


AMEN!

I don't consider myself a 'zionist' and the Israeli government does a LOT of things I strongly disagree with, but I think that someone who isn't living here and trying to make a difference doesn't have the right to pass criticism. What are they waiting for? Someone else to solve their problems? Are they not Jews too?
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 5:11 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
Hashem specifically told those people not to go. Totally different situation.

I'm not sure why you think sitting back and waiting for everyone in Israel to be frum is a reasonable or effective approach. There were plenty of Jewish kings who worshipped avoda zara. Public concert rehearsals on shabbos aren't exactly comparable. If you want to shape Israeli society, you have to be in Israel.


Sigh.

The point wasn't the public concert vs. Avoda Zara.

The point (at least that particular one, how convenient to not mention the initial part where I specifically talk about kedusha) is that don't tell me the state of Israel is the land of the Jews when in actuality religious practice of Judaism (Shabbos is a basic tenet, the sign of our bris with Hashem) is scorned and ridiculed for the sake of being "k'chol ha'amim"

And to your first point, our Rov told us not to go. Yes, we asked, it wasn't a generic message that he said and we applied it to ourselves.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 5:26 am
cbsp wrote:
Sigh.

The point wasn't the public concert vs. Avoda Zara.

The point (at least that particular one, how convenient to not mention the initial part where I specifically talk about kedusha) is that don't tell me the state of Israel is the land of the Jews when in actuality religious practice of Judaism (Shabbos is a basic tenet, the sign of our bris with Hashem) is scorned and ridiculed for the sake of being "k'chol ha'amim"


As someone who made Aliyah many years ago and all my very Israeli children were born here in Israel, I agree with this completely.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 5:36 am
cbsp wrote:
Sigh.

The point wasn't the public concert vs. Avoda Zara.

The point (at least that particular one, how convenient to not mention the initial part where I specifically talk about kedusha) is that don't tell me the state of Israel is the land of the Jews when in actuality religious practice of Judaism (Shabbos is a basic tenet, the sign of our bris with Hashem) is scorned and ridiculed for the sake of being "k'chol ha'amim"

And to your first point, our Rov told us not to go. Yes, we asked, it wasn't a generic message that he said and we applied it to ourselves.


Shabbat observance in Israel must take into account the secular portion of society that desires and deserves a day of leisure that meets their needs too.
That's what it means to live in a state that comprises all types of Jews from diverse backgrounds.
It is a very delicate balance that is renegotiated from time to time and is a main preoccupation and priority of the haredi parties in the Knesset.
There are also very many traditional people who want to preserve a sense of Shabbat in the public sphere even if they are not strictly observant in the Orthodox sense.
But the very fact that Shabbat is defined as the official day of rest in Israel and enshrined as such in law and, to a great extent, in practice in the public sphere, belies your contention that it is "scorned and ridiculed for the sake of being K'chol Ha'amin"
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 5:40 am
DrMom wrote:
So why didn't you just say that instead of all the nonsense about not making aliyah because illegal job-holders are not granted full maternity leave?

And why do you assume you will be poor and unemployed in Israel? Again, this seems like another convenient assumption on your part to justify the fact that you just want to stay put in galut.

For the record, when most serious people come on aliyah from First World countries, they do so in an organized manner designed to maximize the probability their aliyah will be successful. They make a pilot trip, scope out job options months ahead of time, establish professional contacts, meet with an aliyah counselor to discuss employment options, have a financial plan, etc etc.

They don't just show up and take low-paying, under-the-table jobs, get pregnant, and lament the lack of maternity leave.


1. I don't owe you an explanation, I can do whatever I want for any reason

2. Why do you care so much? If you're SO Happy in Israel Just count your blessings and leave others alone. Seriously it's quite pathetic, what are you trying to achieve?
Do you want those who don't want to make Aliyah to feel bad? Do you want to put others down to feel better about yourself? You don't have to answer that, I really don't care
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 5:46 am
cbsp wrote:
Sigh.

The point wasn't the public concert vs. Avoda Zara.

The point (at least that particular one, how convenient to not mention the initial part where I specifically talk about kedusha) is that don't tell me the state of Israel is the land of the Jews when in actuality religious practice of Judaism (Shabbos is a basic tenet, the sign of our bris with Hashem) is scorned and ridiculed for the sake of being "k'chol ha'amim"

And to your first point, our Rov told us not to go. Yes, we asked, it wasn't a generic message that he said and we applied it to ourselves.


I agree with you. Right now it's a state of Jews, but not a Jewish state.

We're working to change that, but geulah is a process.Even though we'd like it to be overnight, it takes time to get all the parts together. beezrat Hashem, in our lifetimes, we may even see the fruit of our labours. If not, then I hope my children will see it.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 6:16 am
cbsp wrote:
Sigh.

The point wasn't the public concert vs. Avoda Zara.

The point (at least that particular one, how convenient to not mention the initial part where I specifically talk about kedusha) is that don't tell me the state of Israel is the land of the Jews when in actuality religious practice of Judaism (Shabbos is a basic tenet, the sign of our bris with Hashem) is scorned and ridiculed for the sake of being "k'chol ha'amim"

And to your first point, our Rov told us not to go. Yes, we asked, it wasn't a generic message that he said and we applied it to ourselves.


That's exactly the point. Israel is the land of the Jews no matter what is going on here.

Israel isn't perfect, but I bet there's a lot more learning, and kashrus and shabbos here than anywhere else. What percentage of Jews in the United States or Europe or South America do any of those things?

Shabbos is the official day of rest, even though the majority of Jews here aren't shomer shabbos. And 25 percent of Israelis aren't Jewish. Yet stores close and busses stop through most of the country. That's hardly scorning.

Now, it's my job to increase the love of shabbos in Israeli society. But it's a holy land no matter what. The gemara I quoted earlier in this thread says that it is better to live in Israel in a city of ovdei avoda zara than to live outside of Israel in a city that is mostly Jewish.

I object to the idea that it's appropriate to sit back and wait for things to be just to your liking. We captured this land with an army. And then took a few hundred years to build a mikdash. Why expect that things will be instantaneous now? Are we greater than the generation that came into Israel?

As far as your decision, I'm in no place to comment, and in fact I haven't. I think it's great that you considered aliya enough to speak to a Rav. Plenty of wonderful Jews have lived fulfilling lives outside of Israel. That doesn't change the fact that Israel is central to what it means to be a Jew.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 7:30 am
Israeli_C wrote:
AMEN!

I don't consider myself a 'zionist' and the Israeli government does a LOT of things I strongly disagree with, but I think that someone who isn't living here and trying to make a difference doesn't have the right to pass criticism. What are they waiting for? Someone else to solve their problems? Are they not Jews too?


Mashiach.

There's a difference of approaches as to the appropriate behavior while waiting. Doesn't make someone less a Jew if their derech to tzipisa li'yeshua involves trying to improve their shmiras Torah and mitzvos in chutz la'aretz.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 7:46 am
cbsp wrote:
Mashiach.

There's a difference of approaches as to the appropriate behavior while waiting. Doesn't make someone less a Jew if their derech to tzipisa li'yeshua involves trying to improve their shmiras Torah and mitzvos in chutz la'aretz.


And you are convinced that the morning after Mashiach arrives everyone in Israel will suddenly be religious and schools will run as you like them to?
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Israeli_C




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 8:13 am
cbsp wrote:
Mashiach.

There's a difference of approaches as to the appropriate behavior while waiting. Doesn't make someone less a Jew if their derech to tzipisa li'yeshua involves trying to improve their shmiras Torah and mitzvos in chutz la'aretz.


The Moshiach won't come if we twiddle our thumbs and whine that things aren't as they should be. I don't know how you affiliate yourself, but in Chabad it's well understood that our actions have a direct influence on the arrival of the Moshiach and the coming of geula. It's not enough to BELIEVE in the coming of Moshiach. You need to get off your butt and actively engage in tikkun olam
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someone




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 8:38 am
No one here is claiming that everything here in Israel is perfect. Yes, we have a long way to go. Rav Kook said (years before there was a state of Israel) מדינת ישראל היא יסוד כסא ה' בעולם - the State of Israel is the foundation of Hashem's chair in the world. It's not the chair itself, yet. It's atchalta d'geulah, not yet the geulah itself. There are many many things here that we still have to daven for and work toward, many of them have been raised in this thread. But I choose to be here and work toward fixing them.
But look at where we are now and where we were 100 years ago. Tomorrow is Yom Ha'atzmaut. From my perspective it's a day where we put aside the things that bother us (of which there are many) and concentrate on the open miracles Hashem has done and continues to do for us every day. The perek of Tehillim that some of us say before Ma'ariv on the evening of Yom Ha'atzmaut ends מי חכם וישמור אלה ויתבוננו חסדי ה. These words weren't chosen stam, those who are wise look deeply and mitbonen (I don't know how to translate that word, it means to study not just to look) at Hashem's chasadim. It's not always staring you in the face, sometimes you need to work and look for it. Sometimes the light is mixed with the darkness, but when we look closely there is a tremendous amount of light. And at the end of the Yom Ha'atzmaut davening we sing Ani Ma'amin - we remind ourselves that this isn't the final stop, we have a long way to go, but we have come so far. We have so much to thank Hashem for.
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Mayflower




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 8:43 am
cbsp wrote:
Mashiach.
There's a difference of approaches as to the appropriate behavior while waiting. Doesn't make someone less a Jew if their derech to tzipisa li'yeshua involves trying to improve their shmiras Torah and mitzvos in chutz la'aretz.


Israeli_C wrote:
The Moshiach won't come if we twiddle our thumbs and whine that things aren't as they should be. I don't know how you affiliate yourself, but in Chabad it's well understood that our actions have a direct influence on the arrival of the Moshiach and the coming of geula. It's not enough to BELIEVE in the coming of Moshiach. You need to get off your butt and actively engage in tikkun olam

How is the bolded "twiddle our thumbs and whine"?

Yes, we need to actively engage in tikkun olam. By doing mitzvos, not davka by moving to Israel.

Lubavitchers, of all people, should be able to understand this. Is this not what shlichus all over the world is all about? And where did the Lubavitcher rebbe live again?

In fact, I found an interesting letter of the Rebbe on the Chabad site:
Quote:

I am in receipt of you letter, in which you write that you are concerned and puzzled, and urgently request a reply—as to why I do not go to Eretz Yisroel.
[...]
Inasmuch as you write that you are very puzzled, and do request an answer, I will not evade giving you one—all the more so since the answer is quite simple. Indeed, it is already implicit in what was said above about the first duty of a Jew, and of any human being, to fulfill his mission in the place where he lives, and only after he has done everything expected of him locally, to consider whether he should go to another place to carry on his mission there. Obviously, one should not abandon “the front” before making sure that everything is in order.
(source)

(Yes, I know many people who asked the rebbe if they should go to Israel did get his advice to go. Still, the point stands.)
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 9:55 am
Do you really want me to make Aliyah?

Even if we will actively discourage our sons from joining the army, unless/until they are more supportive of Chareidim and halacha-observance?

Even if we will be another drain on the tzedakah organizations because we're barely making it in the US with our American salaries and government benefits?

I've noticed some contradictions on the above points in this thread.

Although I would dearly love to live in Eretz Yisroel, we are actively working on helping Jews where we live, and there's nobody to take us over. So it's not an option right now.

We don't subscribe to the belief that the founding of the state of Israel is Ischalta D'Geulah, but the land itself is tremendously holy, and the millions of Jewish souls living there are immensely precious. Living in Israel is a privilege and a responsibility, as a higher standard of behavior is expected in a place with a higher level of kedusha.

I hope Hashem will give me the opportunity to visit again, with my children! I tear up looking at pictures and am always excited when I find cheap flights (even though we don't have money for those either).
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someone




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 10:00 am
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
Do you really want me to make Aliyah?

Even if we will actively discourage our sons from joining the army, unless/until they are more supportive of Chareidim and halacha-observance?

Even if we will be another drain on the tzedakah organizations because we're barely making it in the US with our American salaries and government benefits?


Yes, I do. When I daven every day וקבצינו יחד מארבע כנפות הארץ לארצינו I don't add a caveat of "unless they will discourage their kids from serving in the army and won't be a financial burden, in which case leave them there".
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 10:20 am
The Lubavitcher Rebbe advised case by case and in general to go or stay where one can make the most difference in ones sviva, in ones environment, to influence others to Torah and Mitzvos. Often this meant staying on the front lines in ones own community outside of E"Y. Sometimes he sent people to E"Y. Same mission. Different battlegrounds. Not always where we "want" to be or where its "easiest" for us. But where we can make the biggest positive impact IY"H to bring Moshiach.

(I wouldn't have weighed in on this "debate" except for the fact that this point upthread needed some clarification)

and as far as I know he was a big proponent of sensitive and refined language

He also always said E"Y was the safest place on earth upon which Hashem has "His Eye" all the time so to speak.

May we all be zochah to be positive influences on ourselves and those around us!
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 08 2019, 10:24 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
1. I don't owe you an explanation, I can do whatever I want for any reason

2. Why do you care so much? If you're SO Happy in Israel Just count your blessings and leave others alone. Seriously it's quite pathetic, what are you trying to achieve?
Do you want those who don't want to make Aliyah to feel bad? Do you want to put others down to feel better about yourself? You don't have to answer that, I really don't care

Of course you can decide to do what you want. But:

1. If you are gong to write into a semi-public forum about it, you should expect people to engage with you, and perhaps ask questions or challenge your ideas.

2. If you are going to post incorrect or potentially misleading information (e.g., Israel doesn't allow maternity leave; pregnant workers must quit their jobs, almost all olim make minimum wage jobs and end up in poverty), you should expect people to correct your statements.

3. By posting misleading info, you might persuade otherwise enthusiastic Jews from making aliyah -- something I personally consider very damaging to Am Yisrael. So yeah, I will step in and offer facts.

4. Spreading misinformation about Israel that makes the country look bad. I think it's pretty nasty to speak ill about the Jewish homeland as an excuse for not wanting to live here, when in reality, you are just happy where you are and simply have no desire to make changes in this area of your life. If you scapegoat the Jewish homeland using false statements to justify your complacency, you should expect others to speak up.
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