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Is seminary necessary for a Shidduch?
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mommyX2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 1:52 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
So many times amothers made predictions to me that were wrong. So I will take your prediction with a grain of salt and say that I don't think I am setting myself up for disappointment.

My common sense and experience with other girls and my own experience tells me shidduchim isn't a level playing field. My daughter has beautiful middos, but then so does all the other girls around her. Good middos in a girl is expected.

Since I am not pushing my kids to get married young, none of this is discussed with them. DD has more worth than if she could get married.

DH made one comment to me that seminary is necessary for a shidduch. I am trying to figure out if it is in fact necessary.


I think it's not a level playing field with money/looks. but that just means she will get the dates. as far as if she will find her beshert right away or not that is up to Hashem.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 7:10 am
mommyX2 wrote:
I think it's not a level playing field with money/looks. but that just means she will get the dates. as far as if she will find her beshert right away or not that is up to Hashem.


I don't understand what the debate is about. I often hear people say that a certain girl will "go fast". These girls do indeed go fast. They are the pretty girls from a good families with money. We all know this.

Shadchins rather work with the ones who match easier and don't show them the boys/girls with obvious problems.

As to the poster that wrote about the resulting marriages with money being one criteria, I disagree. When you both come from a similar backgrounds with strong family support, and have money easing the way, it creates an easier path for the couple.

It may not be fair, but that's what Hashem created.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 9:40 am
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
Why is it wrong to say hashem runs the world according to teva. He does! If you visit Miami this July will you bring a heavy winter coat? Why not? Hashem can do anything. Maybe he'll make it 10 degrees and 2 feet of snow in South Florida. You don't think hashem can do this? Of course you do. However, since you believe he runs the worls mostly thru teva, you won't pack your winter clothes.


Because particularly in the area of Shidduchim, Chazal tell us that Hashem personally is mizaveg zivugim. It is one area that is not run according to Teva.

Chuckling at your last point. My father didn't take a coat with him to E"Y, and he said one day it was freezing, the next day warm....(guess who urged him to take one...)
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 9:42 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you. I called and left a message for an application. Do you know if they are still accepting students for next year?


No idea. Maybe try calling them during the day, you might reach a secretary that you can ask....
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 10:31 am
I only read the OP and some of the answers but I will tell you that I'm married in my 20's I didn't go to camp my family went on vacation every summer. And that is what my parents told the shadchan but it still made some parent of boys question it. After hearing I didn't go to camp the next question was always did she go to seminary. And honestly my mother felt I could have started my degree earlier. I have no need for a seminary degree Seminary was useless. But I went for that reason. But In the evenings after seminary I worked until I started going to college. A friend of mine went to camp but didn't go to seminary and she found people it to be a huge issues. Camp, seminary are optional but are not meant to be optional. I have friends that are still single they are not being asked about seminary because as time goes on the answer is not important anymore but the first few years out of school it is
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amother
Lime


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 11:03 am
Chayalle wrote:
Because particularly in the area of Shidduchim, Chazal tell us that Hashem personally is mizaveg zivugim. It is one area that is not run according to Teva.

Chuckling at your last point. My father didn't take a coat with him to E"Y, and he said one day it was freezing, the next day warm....(guess who urged him to take one...)




Sure hashem makes shidduchim. But like everything else in the world from health, fertility, parnassah, to name a few, we have no understanding of the metric hashem uses to decide who is matsliach and who isn't. Are people with emunah living longer? Do those with emunah not suffer tragedies? All the sudden with shidduchim you are claiming that those with emunah are more matsliach than those with less emunah. We all unfortunately know older singles. I think it would be absurd to say that in general terms, singles have less emunah than married people. Chazal say hashem makes sivugim. Great. But we have no explanation why some he left out.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 11:28 am
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
Sure hashem makes shidduchim. But like everything else in the world from health, fertility, parnassah, to name a few, we have no understanding of the metric hashem uses to decide who is matsliach and who isn't. Are people with emunah living longer? Do those with emunah not suffer tragedies? All the sudden with shidduchim you are claiming that those with emunah are more matsliach than those with less emunah. We all unfortunately know older singles. I think it would be absurd to say that in general terms, singles have less emunah than married people. Chazal say hashem makes sivugim. Great. But we have no explanation why some he left out.



Exactly the bolded. So how can anyone say that it's the people with more money, looks, etc...when it so clearly isn't.

I can't claim that those who have more emunah are matzliach, and I don't think I did. I only said that I really do think my mother A"H had this quality, and it likely contributed to the fact that she/we were able to find shidduchim.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 12:03 pm
Op, I know from my experience more dates are set up when girl is pretty with money. But, only hashem knows how many dates one will go on before getting married. However, there are many ppl who don't go out with a girl bec they didn't go seminary. Of course maybe those ppl don't use internet.

But, I don't agree with sending your dd if she has reason not to go. I think it wont be a concern in your case for shiduchim. For my dd, I wouldn't want to spend the money, but if the boy rejects her bec of it, then he is not for her.

Also, as you see here, there's a whole argument about having emuna vs doing wats good For your dd....even many ravs disagree, so everyone really should follow their ravs view....

And, yes, nowadays, the system is dehumanizing for girls...like at a store lets see who is prettiest, thinnest, with most money. And, why should boys get to decide first and get pictures as if our dds are "cheap"???? Messed up system!!!!
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 1:16 pm
I agree with you that girls with good looks get more "suggestions".
It doesn't mean that gorgeous girls end off getting better spouses.

Its one thing to have tons of shidduchim redt for your daughter.
Being intrested in the shidduchim that are redt for you is the thing that actually matters.






I'm not really qualified to respond to your original post but let me tell you my observations after reading this thread;

1. You had a good experince without going to seminary so you're confident about her not going.

2. Your husband feels that in your circles seminary is necassary for a shidduch.

3. Your daughter isn't very excited to go.

The question really is how much anxiety will her not going to seminary cause you?

Given that your husband would rather send, how much backbone do you have to back your decision?

Let's say that eventually you are not being redt the type of boys that you are looking for, will you always feel that your decision was wrong?
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 2:59 pm
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
Op, I know from my experience more dates are set up when girl is pretty with money. But, only hashem knows how many dates one will go on before getting married. However, there are many ppl who don't go out with a girl bec they didn't go seminary. Of course maybe those ppl don't use internet.

But, I don't agree with sending your dd if she has reason not to go. I think it wont be a concern in your case for shiduchim. For my dd, I wouldn't want to spend the money, but if the boy rejects her bec of it, then he is not for her.

Also, as you see here, there's a whole argument about having emuna vs doing wats good For your dd....even many ravs disagree, so everyone really should follow their ravs view....

And, yes, nowadays, the system is dehumanizing for girls...like at a store lets see who is prettiest, thinnest, with most money. And, why should boys get to decide first and get pictures as if our dds are "cheap"???? Messed up system!!!!


Even non-frum society is dehumanizing to women if you look at it that way. Men will want the most prestigious woman however the women is being measured. Trophy wives and 10s aren't an invention of the frum world. It's the exception for a woman to ask out a man that world.

I like the idea of DD getting away from the stress of dealing with a sick family member. She is wonderful about it, and I know she is growing and maturing because of the adversity, but I rather she grows and matures in a seminary setting.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 3:09 pm
crust wrote:
I agree with you that girls with good looks get more "suggestions".
It doesn't mean that gorgeous girls end off getting better spouses.

Its one thing to have tons of shidduchim redt for your daughter.
Being intrested in the shidduchim that are redt for you is the thing that actually matters.






I'm not really qualified to respond to your original post but let me tell you my observations after reading this thread;

1. You had a good experince without going to seminary so you're confident about her not going.

2. Your husband feels that in your circles seminary is necassary for a shidduch.

3. Your daughter isn't very excited to go.

The question really is how much anxiety will her not going to seminary cause you?

Given that your husband would rather send, how much backbone do you have to back your decision?

Let's say that eventually you are not being redt the type of boys that you are looking for, will you always feel that your decision was wrong?


The last paragraph is the problem. How can we know the future? Even more important, DD would probably want that type of boy when the time comes.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 3:19 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Even non-frum society is dehumanizing to women if you look at it that way. Men will want the most prestigious woman however the women is being measured. Trophy wives and 10s aren't an invention of the frum world. It's the exception for a woman to ask out a man that world.

Searching for a mate is a bit dehumanizing for everyone. No matter how you slice it, there will be people out there who don't want you, and that hurts.

There was recently a report about the newest trend of "trophy wives" in Silicon Valley: successful men attempt to wed the smartest women they can find who will be willing to be SAHMs and raise their kids -- thus tipping the scale toward smarter children.

While there was some disagreement over whether this is a real phenomenon or not, a lot of women found the prospect of being rejected for an inadequate IQ just as unpleasant as being rejected for an inadequate figure.

So while we all eagerly agree that we dislike the focus on superficial appearances in dating, it's not going to be less hurtful to be rejected because you're not smart enough or have some perceived character flaw. Rejection stings whether it's reasonable or not.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 5:52 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
The last paragraph is the problem. How can we know the future? Even more important, DD would probably want that type of boy when the time comes.


We can't know because we are only human.

We try to make the best choices based on the information that we currently have and then we own our wrong decisions.

The question is how good are you at owning this mistake if it turns out to be one?

I'm not sure I'd be ready to own the (although I agree its overly exaggerated and only a perceived) mistake about my child's life without my husband, daughter and a Daas Torah on board.

But...
If I were to know without a doubt that I want my daughter married to a boy that wants a seminary girl but then I'm not sending her to seminary, I'm essentially being somech al hanes.

The first thing I would do in your case would be to find out the facts.
Call up two or three experienced shadchanim in your circles and ask them if a girl that does not go to seminary is a second class citizen or not.

Good luck!
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, May 03 2019, 7:35 pm
crust wrote:
We can't know because we are only human.

We try to make the best choices based on the information that we currently have and then we own our wrong decisions.

The question is how good are you at owning this mistake if it turns out to be one?

I'm not sure I'd be ready to own the (although I agree its overly exaggerated and only a perceived) mistake about my child's life without my husband, daughter and a Daas Torah on board.

But...
If I were to know without a doubt that I want my daughter married to a boy that wants a seminary girl but then I'm not sending her to seminary, I'm essentially being somech al hanes.

The first thing I would do in your case would be to find out the facts.
Call up two or three experienced shadchanim in your circles and ask them if a girl that does not go to seminary is a second class citizen or not.

Good luck!


Thank you. I know what I want. I know what my husband wants. Right now I don't know if my daughter even knows what she wants. Her head is in the clouds about her future mate.

It seems the girls go to seminary and come back inspired. Somewhere they are sold that the right marriage is to a learning boy. How can she know what she wants. Her expectations will probably be different if she attends seminary.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 05 2019, 5:44 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I don't think the guy would reject her. I am worried his mom or the shadchan who are in the initial gatekeepers would reject for no seminary. Every single one of her peers are going.

I was talking to a friend this week who is a school administrator, and an excited mom saw us. She came over interrupting us asking my friend for a graduation list of the girls a couple years back. She has a son to marry off and wanted my friend to give her the list as she only wanted that graduates of that school for her son.


Unless the boy said "no girl without sem" (and even then)the shadchan is not going to reject a perfect profile or even a fitting one.
The mother, in such a case, is a bracha
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amother
Gray


 

Post Sun, May 05 2019, 5:50 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Why did come here to mock? It is hard to give the facts necessary to get a meaningful opinion. My daughter has the attributes that are attractive to guys. She also has the character that is attractive to guys and their mothers. It's a full picture when someone is picking a mate.

Mock all you want, but attraction is important in a mate. Why do you think pictures and dress size is asked for?


Attraction is important that's true
I find it a bit strange that you mention her figure before her character though. Any decent guy will do it the other way around.

For example.. I'm not my husband's type and he isn't mine. We love each other very much and liked eachother right away because we "clicked".
Unlike your daughter I wasn't slim.. my husbands type is slim but he loved my smile, my eyes and my face. He said after talking to me for an hour he couldn't have cared less what my body looked like, he knew I was the one.

As for sem.. I would send her to college instead. It will help her in life.. sem is like a 9 months vacation from reality.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 06 2019, 3:55 pm
Personality is mentioned first than figure. But attraction "not figure" matters
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