S/o of s/o. We backpaid DH tuition

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 9:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Fuchsia- he made a compromise with them because we were buying a home and didnt have extra thosands to throw around. DH also wasn't in such expensive yeshivos. He owed under 10k to each place and compromised on 3-4k if im remembering correctly.
I think your dedication to your sons learning is admirable even if the way your going about it is questionable..
Im scared your gonna attack me but keep in mind the road to hell was paved with good intentions...

I'm sorry OP. You sound like a very special person and I certainly am not attacking you. I'm sorry if I'm hijacking your thread, but I guess I'm really really upset at the system that turns us into beggars and cheaters when we would theoretically be regular people if we didn't have to pay exorbitant tuition. Look at how everyone here is ready to turn me into the police - and what was my crime? That we have a middle class income.

All yeshivos cost the same amount to run, just that some get sponsored. One son was in Mir and we paid only a token amount. But another son was in a different yeshivah and they demanded more - a lot more. We only found this out after six months he was in, we certainly never signed a contract. Most of these yeshivos will say - if asked - that they dont force anyone to pay. And we don't feel particularly guilty that we are not paid up, because we never signed the contract or agreed to the amount. But if my son ever wants his credits he would have to pay I guess. Or maybe we'll win the lottery.

I guess I'm trying to point out that your in-laws are likely good people who got stuck in a system that they didn't create- and never imagined would actually happen to them. I guess I feel like that so I'm assuming they feel the same.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 9:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

And I agree with forestgreen. Of course the story is different if its just a few thousand. Doesnt sound like you plan to leave any future DIL hanging...

Actually they're already married. And we had a conversation with one son and DIL so far, which guess what? Her parents are in even a worse situation than we are. So they both totally understood. This is unfortunately very common in my crowd (yeshivish, chinuch).

And any shidduchim that are being redt to me next few kids will likely be in the same situation as well.

amother

Sun, May 05 2019, 9:14 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

Yesss !!! They are good people just like you! I feel like pain in your words...
More bothersome was negligece on my inlaws end but you dont sound like your making high end affairs and ignoring the tuition. Trying to speak to the yeshiva about it already puts you a step ahead.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 9:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Well, I'm trying to be responsible, but I don't really have a way to make good on It! But my DH and I both come from simple kollel families so we never got used to living well. Although of course that's relative... I'm not serving rice and beans for supper. I can imagine it must be so hard for your in-laws if they come from a more balabatishe background... its really hard to go down.

amother

Sun, May 05 2019, 9:28 pm

2 thinks fuchsia-
1st of all if the yeshiva told you that you arent expected to pay up and to just do your best then you're already in the clear by doing your best. 2nd if your son is going to follow in your ways and go into chinuch then he will probably never need his transcripts (forget credits you can retake those!) Also he can use his FAFSA the way BMG does especially if hes not going to continue his education...
2nd - when I got married DH was the only one his parents were supporting for 5 plus years before we got married. I think financially responsible people can manage to support 3 people simply even on a rebbi and morah salary. But alas.. they weren't simple or responsible..

amother

White

Sun, May 05 2019, 9:55 pm

OMG! I did not read through the entire thread, but I had such a similar situation with my in-laws! Except that they aren't poor. My parents were never wealthy and a few years before I got married, my father's partner stole his assets. (Long story, but they were still on court/mediation until a few years after my wedding and still never recovered fully from being thrown into a cycle of debt.) Anyway, my in-laws agreed with my parents to split everything 50/50 for our very very simple wedding. My father in law was marveled how cheap it was. Anyway, for furniture I got everything hand me down except a dinette set and beds from a gemach. I was planning on getting a bedroom set on Craigslist, but my father insisted that I use the discount from the gemach to buy a used bedroom set. He checked with my in-laws who oked it. After the wedding, we called the furniture store to see why delivery was delayed and was told that my in-laws didn't pay their half. My husband called his father and he was informed he wasn't planning on paying for it. So that's where our chasuna money went. I actually would have been fine without it, but I knew that it would pain my father, so we just payed the balance and never told me parents.

My husband had a credit card that his father gave him to use while in Israel for the 3 years he was in yeshiva there. He spent very little, only ate in yeshiva or when he volunteered at the soup kitchen. Only vacations were to the beach. That was the card my husband was told to use for all chasuna expenses and gifts for me. He cleared every purchase with his parents, and they even urged him to spend more. During Sheva brachos my in-laws took us on a shopping spree for home goods and groceries and paid with that credit card and they were like, spend at much as you like, it's on us. Just after Sheva brachos, we stopped using the card. A few months went by and my husband gets a phone call from his father saying he is changing the billing address to it address and it's our responsibility. It turns out he was only paying the minimum, and we, a brand new married kollel couple, were dumped into deep debt. This was for years of yeshiva expenses, his dira, his tickets home-that he didn't even want, chasana expenses etc. We were totally blindsided. We never told my parents or even my mother in law, cuz we were nervous for my in-laws shaky shalom bais. (Don't worry, it's still terrible) we still maintained a decent relationship until recently when our relationship cooled majorly for other reasons. (believe it or not, my father in law is the normal one). We still have not recovered 10 years later.
(Also my father in law liked to "complain" to ppl in shul about supporting us in kollel. He did not. And my husband had to sit quietly and take it.)

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:12 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So we happen not to be in chinuch, we're just poor Sad

. Or middle class which is the same thing in the frum world. Anyway, there aren't really jobs in chinuch nowadays so I'm encouraging my sons to get degrees, or at least figure out some kind of plan. I honestly never thought about the credits/tuition thing I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

I'm guessing your in-laws couldn't face the reality of living poor, it's very hard to do that when you're used to living well for so many years. But I understand why you're upset...

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:16 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I honestly can't tell you a name What

But I do think that every parent should be aware of this option. And you should definitely make that call if you're serious about making independent living/ eating arrangements.

If you can't tell me a name then I don't believe you. I have never ever heard of this and I'm sure it's just as unethical as not paying tuition (which I mentioned countless times I DID pay, but whatever...) . And where in the world would the boy fi nd chavrusos from, and I'm guessing he's not going to shiur - so how is he learning on his own? The whole thing does not make any sense at all, it sounds like someone told you a bubbah maysah.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:17 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

OMG, this is honestly the most awful story I ever heard. My heart goes out to you.... Crying

amother

Forestgreen

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:31 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

What's unethical about learning in a beis mesrash??? My dh learns all the time with chavrusas in a beis mesrash and he certainly isn't paying tuition. There's no difference between a married man doing it and a single man doing it. Although of course we make donations to any shul or yeshiva we are affiliated with. Another amother wrote that all her brothers did this. I have multiple nephews and cousins doing it so nope, no bubbah maysahs on my end. They network and find chavrusas. You don't have to believe me, either way.

amother

Lemon

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:40 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Just chiming in to say that I'm pretty sure this is normal.

My own kids are still in elementary, but I know anyone who wants can learn in a bais medrash and sit in on shiurim that are in the main area.

My father recently retired and found a avreich who's willing to learn with him an hour or two in the local yeshiva. My brother in law got divorced a few years back, kept his job half day, and found a kollel guy who wanted to learn with him for second seder (the kollel doesnt pay my bil). DH will go to his old kollel on legal holidays and random off days and learn there. He'll also learn in random shuls when we're away for shabbos.

Your tuition money is going for meals, room and board, credits, and any individual attention or hadracha that the yeshiva is giving your son.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:48 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Ok, this is the reason why it's a bubbah maysah - after 12th (or 11th grade) the boy is in bais medrash. He's learning in a yeshivah with a seder, there's a mashgiach, there's a shiur, a 19 year old boy is NOT learning on his own, and hes not arranging his own chavrusos. And he's going to shiur. To a Rebbe. Which someone has to pay for.

And I'm pretty sure we were talking about elementary and high school as well - should I tell my kids, sorry, no school, you're going to public school or your in the streets?

Also, your dh learns in a bais medrash? Of a yeshivah? I know my dh tried to do this years ago and he was told no. (I can give you the name of the bais medrash, but there's way too much identifying info here already so I wont). In any case, theres a big difference between a married man learning on his own and a 19 year old yeshivah bochur learning on his own. I never ever heard of this, so I'm calling your bluff. Sorry, but it's just not true.

And yes, it IS unethical to attach yourself to a yeshiva when you weren't accepted (which I presume was the story in your situation). Mir used to allow this but I have heard that they have cracked down on this more recently.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:51 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

You're wrong. It's totally not normal. An avreich is not someone who's just coming out of high school. You don't send an 18 19 year old to learn on his own, the idea is ridiculous.

If my son lives at home, do I not then have to pay tuition?

Honestly, you really have NO idea what you're talking about.

ETA: I want to add that if anyone here is reading this and thinks this is a good idea, I am warning you - DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. Don't take a silly idea from imamother and ruin your sons life. Just don't.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 10:57 pm

I just want to point out one more thing:

In the VERY unlikely event that a yeshivah will allow a boy to come and learn on his own, this is the unethical part: it's geneivas daas. When people ask you where you are learning and you decided to park yourself in Torah Temimah's bais medrash, for example, you cannot say you are learning in Torah Temimah as that implies that you were actually accepted when you were not.

It's exactly like going to Harvard, crashing all the classes, and when people ask you where you are going to college, you say - Harvard.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, May 05 2019, 11:16 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I know boys who have done this in chaim Berlin, Torah vodaas, and Torah temima. I'm sure it happens elsewhere but I don't have personal experience with it.

I'm confused about how it's allowed halachically to send a boy to live in the dorms and eat yeshiva food with no intention to pay.

ETA your previous posts were really not clear in terms of how much your balance was and the fact that you intend to pay eventually. I think people (myself included) were responding based on what seemed to be a different situation than you are now portraying.

Because I know these yeshivos and I know this is not true.

There is no work study arrangement in Torah Temimah. Maybe this was a scholarship, I have no idea, that someone arranged. It is not available to everyone. It was not offered to me.

Let's say my son lives with relatives and eats his own food - does he not have to pay tuition? The tuition is the same (at least for me it was, like I said we got scholarships).

You have mentioned that boys learn in a bais medrash without being officially enrolled - maybe they do, but that's usually because they weren't accepted (nothing to do with paying). And it's not ethical to do that. And how would how would he get chavrusos? Because the chavrusos are based around the shiur.

The reason why I say this is not true is because it just doesn't make sense. It's not how post high school yeshivos work. It's just not.

amother

Lemon

Sun, May 05 2019, 11:25 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

You seem to be talking about a structured post high school program. I was talking about a post high school boy, or any man, who uses a community bais medrash (such as ner yisrael Baltimore, or chaim berlin in brooklyn) as place to learn. You can easily find someone to learn with. My bil, in the post u quoted, doesnt tell people he learns in the kollel-he writes that he has a chavrusa for 2nd seder. There's no genaivas daas--shuls and batai medrash are made for this reason.

But even with the post hs program, surely you can understand that the starting point of tuition would be less without room and board? I went to a local seminary that had a dorm option. The starting points of full tuition were quite different than the dorm girls'.

ra_mom

Sun, May 05 2019, 11:26 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

This is inconceivable! Crying

I am crying for you!