Dear brothers and sisters throughout the world

southernbubby

Thu, May 09 2019, 12:15 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Definitely. A lot can be avoided with the proper care.
Do you acknowledge that MMR can have potentially life threatening and serious complications?

Sometimes proper care includes a ventilator. Modern medicine does save most people who get measles. I wonder how long insurance companies will put up with this.

amother

Emerald

Thu, May 09 2019, 12:16 am

Anyway guys, I haven't been on Imamother for years. My friend just told me there is action here. . Was nice checking in. Keep healthy wherever you are. My life is much too busy for this.

amother

Emerald

Thu, May 09 2019, 12:24 am

southernbubby wrote:

But we have seen that numerous rabbonim have issued statements that due to the outbreak, it is obligatory according to halacha to vaccinate so what Rabbi Moshe Feinstein said may have had to do with organ donation but not with containing an outbreak with vaccines.

Who educated the rabonim?
I haven't seen a single such SIGNED statement from any of the rabbonim that I take different psak from, except for one that doesn't pertain to the USA.
Plus my rav told me not to vax and my doctor (who tells ppl to vax) told me not to vax due to some really obvious family reactions to vaccines that would be extremely difficult to deny.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, May 09 2019, 12:27 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Definitely. A lot can be avoided with the proper care.
Do you acknowledge that MMR can have potentially life threatening and serious complications?

It can, but the risk of that is far less than the risk with measles.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, May 09 2019, 12:31 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

So if your family can't vax due to reactions that are specific to your family, don't vax. But don't make it as if vaxxing is inherently more dangerous than measles for those who don't have your reactions. If everyone would vax besides the very small minority that can't for medical reasons we wouldn't be seeing this sort of outbreak.

teachkids

Thu, May 09 2019, 2:40 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

In order for people who have MEDICAL reasons not to vax, everyone else needs to be on top of it. High chance that if your body can't fight off the vaccine it probably can't fight off the disease itself.

WastingTime

Thu, May 09 2019, 2:50 am

As someone who doesn't generally care abt what others do with their own lives I can honestly say that yes I hate the anti vax movement.
The most basic selfish reason is my precious newborn daughter. With my previous kids I never had to worry abt them catching preventable diseases. Measles sounded as possible as small pox. And now, my baby, everyone's babies, my friends with autoimmune disorders etc etc are all at risk of a REAL disease (no it's not just a rash) because of these ppl.

And btw when someone writes such inaccurate information as no one died from measles since 2003 I stop reading. A baby died in Jlm this yr. A 10 yr old has irreversible brain damage. There's more obviously but since it's not your kids I guess what difference does it make?

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, May 09 2019, 2:57 am

teachkids wrote:

This is an excellent point. It makes no sense for those arguing that their family members can't be vaccinated because of adverse reactions to vaccines to then want to expose their children to measles. Their delicate little flowers can't handle vaccines, but can handle serious illness?

So there's a different argument: They want to expose their children to measles so that they'll have lifelong immunity. But this argument ignores the fact that having measles makes one more susceptible, for years, to other infections, because measles cause loss of "immunity memory": the body forgets how to fight off other diseases that it has already learned to fight off. See https://www.nature.com/article.....15-0. In addition, it puts immunocompromised people at risk.

WastingTime

Thu, May 09 2019, 3:35 am

Oh and btw according to your story that the person only died of measles because they had pneumonia...measles can CAUSE pneumonia. It was not 2 different illnesses/diseases

happyness

Thu, May 09 2019, 6:55 am

southernbubby wrote:

Thanks rose.
I don't understand where she is coming from and wonder why she attacked me.

Gosh I didn't mean to attack you, I didn't say YOU are childish. I said the comparison was. My apologies if the sharpness annoyed you. Traveling for 9 hours does that to you Can't Believe It

In either case, of course strept can be dangerous in extremely rare scenarios. Compare that to the hundreds of thousands of cases a year that turn out just fine BH.
What I meant was, not the level of suffering or pain, or the side effects, are comparative to strept.
Gamzeyaavor, I thought we were going to do laundry?? FYI I totally taped those signs to my kids...got a coupla smirks and comments Tongue Out

Last edited by happyness on Thu, May 09 2019, 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total

happyness

Thu, May 09 2019, 6:57 am

WastingTime wrote:

Oh and btw according to your story that the person only died of measles because they had pneumonia...measles can CAUSE pneumonia. It was not 2 different illnesses/diseases

Did you know that a baby with Down Syndrome IN EY died of measles in the beginning of the Jewish Year (I think like right after succos). And when I told this to an anti-vaxxer she was like 'well, his immune system is weak and he had a host of other issues, of course the measles killed him!"

teachkids

Thu, May 09 2019, 7:22 am

delicious wrote:

Gosh I didn't attack you, I didn't say YOU are childish. I said the comparison was. My apologies if the sharpness annoyed you. Traveling for 9 hours does that to you Can't Believe It

The biggest difference between strep and measles is that strep is a bacteria that you can wipe out with antibiotics and measles is a virus your body has to fight on its own.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, May 09 2019, 7:31 am

delicious wrote:

This is so horrible! One thing to say to that anti-vaxxer is: "Indeed, the measles does kill people who are weak. That is why everybody needs to be vaccinated, so that weak people don't catch this disease and die!"

Or does she see measles as some kind of draconian Darwinian filtering device, determining who is worthy to live?

I'm appalled and disgusted.

happyness

Thu, May 09 2019, 7:44 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Yes, that is what began to form the opinion in my mind, that a lot of this anti-vax stuff is very enmeshed with EGO
Which, fyi, stands for Edging God Out

happyness

Thu, May 09 2019, 7:45 am

teachkids wrote:

The biggest difference between strep and measles is that strep is a bacteria that you can wipe out with antibiotics and measles is a virus your body has to fight on its own.

Ah. true. So that's why those with a very weak immune system are in great danger from the measles.

southernbubby

Thu, May 09 2019, 8:08 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

You may have both a medical and therefore halachic reason to avoid it, but the large, well known groups of rabbonim that signed statements that the public should vaccinate did so after conferring with doctors.

southernbubby

Thu, May 09 2019, 8:19 am

Iymnok wrote:

Delicious, complications from strep are rare because we treat it with antibiotics. If untreated, the complications are significantly more common.

Exactly! It can damage the heart and I think also the kidneys. My point is that I also wouldn't compare measles to the flu because the flu can kill but if someone wants to compare measles to a benign disease, there are plenty of "24 hour bugs" however, in today's superbug environment, that polio- like illness, AFM, that has been paralyzing dozens, seems to start like an ordinary virus. Basically we can't trust germs.

southernbubby

Thu, May 09 2019, 8:23 am

delicious wrote:

Gosh I didn't attack you, I didn't say YOU are childish. I said the comparison was. My apologies if the sharpness annoyed you. Traveling for 9 hours does that to you Can't Believe It

Thanks for explaining and apologizing. I think that several of us were taken aback by the wording. I always regret it if I submit without reading my own comment.

southernbubby

Thu, May 09 2019, 8:38 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

No but the problem comes when we try to sell vaccines on the premise that the diseases are deadly because in countries where the health care is adequate, the death rates are low and often those who die of measles were also endangered by other pathogens. For example, chemo patients are sometimes advised not to eat raw veggies or engage in intimate relations because they are vulnerable to the germs that come from that.

What we can emphasize is that we can limit the spread of measles by vaccines but once the disease gets a foothold in society, it will cause death, disabilities, disruption of life, unnecessary expense, and suffering.