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Just wondering....re: vaxxing
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delicious




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 3:43 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
That goes both ways.


Sure we are blaming. Because you guys are the ones causing harm to those that cannot get the measles.
Us not being familiar with the ins and outs of measles, and the ways to treat them, is not harming anti-vaxxers.
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amother




Peach


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 5:01 pm
delicious wrote:
Sure we are blaming. Because you guys are the ones causing harm to those that cannot get the measles.
Us not being familiar with the ins and outs of measles, and the ways to treat them, is not harming anti-vaxxers.

I mentioned ways how pro vaxxers are a threat to immune compromised. I guess you didn't read
Another way, do you keep your child home after varicella shot? Otherwise thats a threat to immune compromised.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 5:18 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
I mentioned ways how pro vaxxers are a threat to immune compromised. I guess you didn't read
Another way, do you keep your child home after varicella shot? Otherwise thats a threat to immune compromised.


Pesach caused a huge surge in the number of reported measles cases, as we knew it would.

I agree that the DOH should realize that posting the signs and symptoms of measles online will not reach the majority of the Chassidishe community and they would get their attention if they printed them in Yiddish and put them in mailboxes.

What sources do you have concerning children who receive the chicken pox vaccine being a danger to the immune compromised?
The CDC says that transmission is possible but rare. I never heard anything about staying out of stores but it's often given during the summer so that compromised children who are in school won't catch anything.
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 5:29 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
I mentioned ways how pro vaxxers are a threat to immune compromised. I guess you didn't read
Another way, do you keep your child home after varicella shot? Otherwise thats a threat to immune compromised.


There have been over 50 million doses of varicella vaccine administered thus far. Out of 50 million, there were 11 instances of someone "shedding" the live vaccine and infecting another person. In all of those cases, the vaccinated person had a mild chicken pox like rash and fever. Also, the person infected always contracted a very mild form of the chicken pox.

I actually vaccinated one of my kids for chicken pox just last week and the pediatrician told me very clearly that if he comes down with fever or rash I should consider him contagious and keep him home from school and away from anyone else at risk. Beyond that, there's no evidence in millions of cases that someone appeared perfectly healthy and still infected someone else after being vaccinated.
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amother




Peach


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 5:35 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
There have been over 50 million doses of varicella vaccine administered thus far. Out of 50 million, there were 11 instances of someone "shedding" the live vaccine and infecting another person. In all of those cases, the vaccinated person had a mild chicken pox like rash and fever. Also, the person infected always contracted a very mild form of the chicken pox.

I actually vaccinated one of my kids for chicken pox just last week and the pediatrician told me very clearly that if he comes down with fever or rash I should consider him contagious and keep him home from school and away from anyone else at risk. Beyond that, there's no evidence in millions of cases that someone appeared perfectly healthy and still infected someone else after being vaccinated.

11 documented cases that is
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 5:50 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
11 documented cases that is


Exactly. I can assure you that any severe cases would have been documented. And all 11 cases followed the same pattern.
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amother




Peach


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 6:55 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Exactly. I can assure you that any severe cases would have been documented. And all 11 cases followed the same pattern.

That's speculation. Mine against yours
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 7:19 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
That's speculation. Mine against yours


So are you saying that many immuno-compromised people are getting chicken pox from newly vaccinated kids but either they are hiding it from their doctors or their doctors are hiding it from the CDC? I would think that they would be all too happy to report it. I am not sure what they gain by not reporting.
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delicious




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 7:39 pm
southernbubby wrote:
So are you saying that many immuno-compromised people are getting chicken pox from newly vaccinated kids but either they are hiding it from their doctors or their doctors are hiding it from the CDC? I would think that they would be all too happy to report it. I am not sure what they gain by not reporting.


Southernbubby, we are not talking to rational people.
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 7:56 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
That's speculation. Mine against yours


Okeedokes. I work off evidence, not suspicion.
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amother




Saddlebrown


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 8:04 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
11 documented cases that is

I don't believe for a second that all cases were reported.

Being that most parents still consider chicken pox a mild disease, they probably didn't bother reporting.

I know all of my kids caught chicken pox from a girl who got shingles from her vaccine. I very highly doubt that she is one of the 11 documented cases.

(Oh, btw, my kids all got the MMR, but I won't be giving them varicella.)
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gamzehyaavor




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 8:06 pm
Hey people, don't you find it ironic how well the system matched amother 'peach's' color?
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amother




Ruby


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 8:12 pm
2 of my kids came down with chicken pox after they were immunized. Both had a very very mild version of it.
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amother




Saddlebrown


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 8:13 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
2 of my kids came down with chicken pox after they were immunized. Both had a very very mild version of it.

Was it reported?
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 8:24 pm
The 11 cases were immuno-compromised people.

It sounds like vaccinated kids who shed chicken pox gave it to people that they had more contact with than the type of casual contact that happens in stores.

Kids who have chicken pox can later have shingles. My son had shingles a few weeks after he was married.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 8:26 pm
delicious wrote:
Southernbubby, we are not talking to rational people.


Good point
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amother




Yellow


Post  Mon, May 13 2019, 11:42 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The studies on Vitamin A show some protection under very limited circumstances. It is most protective in babies under two years old in communities where Vitamin A deficiency is widespread. Even there, while the studies show that mortality is significantly reduced (by 81% for two successive doses of 200,000 IU of Vitamin A in water-based preparation, and by 48% if in oil-based preparation), there has not been demonstration of reduced incidence of encephalitis or SSPE. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11869601/

But this is if there is Vitamin A deficiency. If people are not Vitamin A deficient -- and they generally are not in the US -- the benefit is much, much smaller.

AFAIK, it has not been shown that the devastating consequences of measles can be prevented by Vitamin A in our population. If you can show differently, please cite the relevant studies.

Hospital protocol currently in the US is to administer two doses of 200,000 IU of Vitamin A to someone infected with measles.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Tue, May 14 2019, 2:27 am
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Hospital protocol currently in the US is to administer two doses of 200,000 IU of Vitamin A to someone infected with measles.


That's interesting, if true, but doesn't negate my point. If indeed the double dose of 200K IU reduces mortality in a population that is deficient in Vitamin A, it would make sense to give this in the hospital, just in case some sick kids are deficient in Vitamin A.

But that doesn't mean that it has been shown to help kids who are not deficient in Vitamin A; it doesn't mean that it has been shown to help kids who are over 2; and it doesn't mean that it has been shown to help reduce the incidence of encephalitis or SSPE.

I asked for relevant studies that showed otherwise, and you haven't been able to give me any. I assume that this means there aren't any.
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amother




Yellow


Post  Tue, May 14 2019, 7:54 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
That's interesting, if true, but doesn't negate my point. If indeed the double dose of 200K IU reduces mortality in a population that is deficient in Vitamin A, it would make sense to give this in the hospital, just in case some sick kids are deficient in Vitamin A.

But that doesn't mean that it has been shown to help kids who are not deficient in Vitamin A; it doesn't mean that it has been shown to help kids who are over 2; and it doesn't mean that it has been shown to help reduce the incidence of encephalitis or SSPE.

I asked for relevant studies that showed otherwise, and you haven't been able to give me any. I assume that this means there aren't any.

I know you don't simply read anything I cut and paste from google, so I need the time to find studies that are good enough for you. Smile Last night I typed up what I know off-hand. This doesn't mean there aren't any studies. And, BTW, if that's how you conduct vaccine research, I lost some of my respect for your research. I mean, just using logic tells me that hospitals wouldn't "waste" Vitamin A for every single patient if there weren't any studies proving its effectiveness in reducing complications.

Here's what I found:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/.....7193230304

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11869601

I don't have access to the full text here, but perhaps you do: https://jamanetwork.com/journa.....act/516043
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Tue, May 14 2019, 7:28 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
I know you don't simply read anything I cut and paste from google, so I need the time to find studies that are good enough for you. Smile Last night I typed up what I know off-hand. This doesn't mean there aren't any studies. And, BTW, if that's how you conduct vaccine research, I lost some of my respect for your research. I mean, just using logic tells me that hospitals wouldn't "waste" Vitamin A for every single patient if there weren't any studies proving its effectiveness in reducing complications.

Here's what I found:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/.....7193230304

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11869601

I don't have access to the full text here, but perhaps you do: https://jamanetwork.com/journa.....act/516043


1. I'm a research scientist. I don't do research into vaccines, or any biology-related area. I never said that I did. What I did say was that I am trained in designing and evaluating research (among other things). These skills transfer across different disciplines of science. In addition, as it happens, my research has at times entailed processing large amounts of PubMed documents.

2. I have emphasized in other threads that it doesn't take a degree in medicine, and one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist, in order to read and evaluate most articles that you can find on PubMed. You need to familiarize yourself with the literature. You need to learn how papers are structured. You need to learn the basic vocabulary that is used. And you need to understand scientific methodology and the concepts of evidence-based medicine. You can learn much of this just by reading Wikipedia articles. You need patience and persistence. I find that I often must read articles multiple times in order to understand them.

3. You wrote:
Quote:

I mean, just using logic tells me that hospitals wouldn't "waste" Vitamin A for every single patient if there weren't any studies proving its effectiveness in reducing complications.

You are wrong about that. Here's a non-vaccine-related example. A dear relative was hospitalized several years ago and needed a blood transfusion. The hospital had a protocol of administering diuretics along with every blood transfusion. This caused the relative to need to urinate frequently; which due to nursing staff shortages and temporary inability of the patient to walk, led to the patient holding in urine; which led to urinary retention; which led to catheterization; which (since the medical staff insisted on leaving the catheter in) led to a terrible UTI which, due to the patient's co-morbidities, almost killed the patient. Fortunately, the patient mostly recovered.

Afterwards, I tried to figure out why the hospital (unfortunately, not a good one) had that protocol. I found that many doctors do in fact pre-medicate their patients with loop diuretics prior to transfusion to prevent certain complications of transfusions. But in fact, there's no high quality evidence to support the practice. See https://www.cochrane.org/CD010.....nsfusions. Medical practice is not in fact perfect, as this case of my relative shows. (As an aside: I am quite certain that I am at least as skeptical of doctors, hospitals, medications, and surgery as any of the non-vaxxers out there. But I can distinguish between evidence-based practices, such as vaccination, and those that are not evidence based. I am still imperfect, especially when it concerns myself or someone close to me, in evaluating risk-benefit trade offs. But really, it is very, very easy to decide in favor of vaccinations. They work. They have ridiculously low rates of side effects. They have a great track record.)

As far as "wasting" Vitamin A: It's incredibly inexpensive to administer a dose of Vitamin A. The dose itself costs pennies. Even with the labor needed to administer, it's less than a couple of dollars. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17974364 Compare that to the cost of an extra day of hospitalization, which on average in the USA costs around $1800. It's worth it for hospitals to try Vitamin A, even if its efficacy has not been proved.

4. Now, regarding the links you posted:
(A) https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/.....7193230304

This is a study of 189 children from South Africa with severe measles, 12 of whom died. (Aside: 12/189 = 6.3%. That's quite a high mortality rate for.) If you look at Table 1, you'll see that more than 80% of the children in the study were under 2 years of age. So this is not contradicting what I wrote above: that the studies that show reduced mortality and morbidity show this reduction for children less than two years old. Also, please note that the reduction is 50%. It didn't bring down mortality to zero; it just halved it. Of course that's better than nothing, but measles vaccination has a much better success rate. It brings down the rate of possible infection by 97%, and if community immunity is present, the death rate is zero.

In addition, all the subjects had depressed retinol (Vitamin A) levels. The question that I have, which I did not find addressed in my initial reading of this paper, is: Were retinol levels depressed in these children before they got measles, or did the measles cause the depressed retinol levels? If the former, then again, this would not apply to a US population where retinol levels are not depressed.

(B)https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11869601

I think I actually mentioned and posted a link to this study previously in this thread. Again, the protective effect of Vitamin A seems to be greatest in areas where Vitamin A deficiency is present. Greater protective effect for children under two.

(C) https://jamanetwork.com/journa.....act/516043

I don't have access to the full text either. But here's what I gathered from the abstract. The patients in this study were all under two. These were kids from New York City, back when there was an epidemic in the early 1990s. Vitamin A levels were measured in a group of babies with measles and a group of babies without measles. Vitamin A levels were much lower in babies with measles. It's not clear -- at least from the abstract -- whether low Vitamin A made the babies susceptible to getting the measles, or whether measles cause Vitamin A levels to drop precipitously.

None of these studies contradicts what I said in my earlier post. The data mostly applies to kids under two. But most importantly, while mortality and morbidity are reduced, they are by no means eliminated. Measles remains a dangerous disease, and even for subgroups that Vitamin A helps, it helps them much less than vaccination would have.
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