Just wondering....re: vaxxing

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Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations

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JoyInTheMorning

Thu, May 09 2019, 4:32 pm

Well, from these two stories (goldrose's and amother Ginger's), I think it's clear what the cause of death is. It's going to the doctor. I bet that if you did studies, you'd find that kids die more frequently within a few weeks of going to the doctor than those who don't go.

[That was tongue in cheek. If that's what the studies show, that wouldn't demonstrate causation between doctor visits and children's deaths. The cause would be a child's illness, which would make both the doctor visits and the death more likely.]

youngishbear

Thu, May 09 2019, 4:47 pm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25057654

"With current recommendations calling for infants to receive multiple doses of vaccines during their first year of life and with sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) the most frequent cause of death during the postneonatal period, it is important to respond to concerns that vaccination might play a role in sudden unexpected infant death. The committee reviewed epidemiologic evidence focusing on three outcomes: SIDS, all SUDI (sudden unexpected death in infancy), and neonatal death (infant death, whether sudden or not, during the first 4 weeks of life). Based on this review, the committee concluded that the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between some vaccines and SIDS; and that the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between other vaccines and SIDS, SUDI, or neonatal death. The evidence regarding biological mechanisms is essentially theoretical, reflecting in large measure the lack of knowledge concerning the pathogenesis of SIDS."

youngishbear

Thu, May 09 2019, 4:50 pm

https://www.sciencedirect.com/.....08978

Abstract
Background
Although previous studies have shown either no association between immunisation and SIDS or even a decreased risk of SIDS, adverse effects, including death, from immunisations continue to cause concern, especially when a new vaccine is introduced.

Methods
A large case control study with immunisation data on 307 SIDS cases and 971 controls.

Results
SIDS cases were immunised less frequently and later than controls. Furthermore there was no increased risk of SIDS in the 14 days following immunisation. There was no evidence to suggest the recently introduced hexavalent vaccines were associated with an increased risk of SIDS.

Conclusions
This study provides further support that immunisations may reduce the risk of SIDS.

kitov

Thu, May 09 2019, 5:56 pm

Just my humble thoughts:

I strongly and heartfully validate medical exemption, but I even more strongly am aghast about religious exemption; there's no such thing....

I totally and heartfully commiserate with patients that have unfortunately been harmed by vaccines, nobody ever said they were 100% safe and sadly some are tragic victims. I do however, totally stand against SPREADING PROPAGANDA via magazines or hotlines, urging perfectly healthy and gullible parents to stop vaccinating their kids.

What angers me too, is the reliance on herd community, which due to said anti-vax propaganda, has decreased the herd, leaving many unimmunized kids wandering our streets and attending our schools and making the current outbreak unstoppable like never before.

And before I go, this will sum it up best,
"anti vaxers are like cement, all mixed up and permanently set".

Done.

amother

cornflower

Thu, May 09 2019, 6:08 pm

kitov wrote:

I don't think there should be any exemptions allowed at all. If vaccines are so safe, everyone should be able to get them with no problem at all, including weak, babies and immunocompromised. They are as safe as drinking water, and we should all get them monthly to ensure solid immunity that has no time to wane.

kitov

Thu, May 09 2019, 6:22 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Nothing man made is perfect, I wish it were. Only Hashem is shleimus.

youngishbear

Thu, May 09 2019, 6:26 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

What fresh nonsense is this? Even perfectly healthy food can be deadly to those with allergies, and even too much drinking water can be deadly to any human who overdoes it.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, May 09 2019, 6:44 pm

youngishbear wrote:

What fresh nonsense is this? Even perfectly healthy food can be deadly to those with allergies, and even too much drinking water can be deadly to any human who overdoes it.

Sigh. Amother cornflower is clearly setting up a strawman.

Thank you, youngish bear, for knocking it down.

amother

cornflower

Thu, May 09 2019, 9:35 pm

youngishbear wrote:

What fresh nonsense is this? Even perfectly healthy food can be deadly to those with allergies, and even too much drinking water can be deadly to any human who overdoes it.

Wait, there's such a thing as overdoing it with vaccines? I think we've long hit our mark.

gamanit

Thu, May 09 2019, 9:38 pm

goldrose wrote:

I prefer to believe it straight from the ones who experienced it.

After reading the story the way the mother put it down on facebook I'm inclined to think it may have been an accidental overdose of essential oils. People are often unaware of how potent those can be. She mentioned that she always ave essential oils before taking her kids to the doctor. I don't know if she even recorded how often and which oils she gave her kids. I wonder if that would have shown up on the autopsy.

amother

Tan

Thu, May 09 2019, 9:53 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Wait, there's such a thing as overdoing it with vaccines? I think we've long hit our mark.

I think it was better when measles was eradicated in the US.

Sunny Days

Fri, May 10 2019, 2:02 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

happyness

Fri, May 10 2019, 4:18 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

My pediatrician told me that he had a recent tragic experience with a 4 month old patient. The baby came in for a well visit and had a bit of a cold. This doctor's policy is to reschedule vaccinations in such a situation. The baby did not get his scheduled shots that day.
That very night, the child tragically passed away from SIDS. If he would have been vaccinated that day, this story would have been weaponized by the antivax movement.

I was going to write this story. It's a very sad but true story.

My husband called a friend, an
anti-vaxxer and asked him "do you agree that it's true that most newborns that contract the measles are in danger and land in the ICU?"

He said yes

So then my husband asked him-now suppose you had a newborn, would you continue to take your children to measles parties

He said 'I don't know, I'll have to ask my wife'

He also replied "no one died from the measles". Which aside from being untrue, is so nasty to throw out there blatantly, as the many that are in tremendous fear from dying are hiding at home for months. ONe poster posted a heartrending post of her child that is home for months and could not attend a chanuka party.

THen my husband asked him "if ch'v you had a sick child, would you vaccinate the rest of your children?'

He said 'I don't know"

Then my husband asked him 'and would you be completely ready, theoretically, to homeschool all your children for good so as to not vaccinate'

He hung up.

My husband called him back a few times and he did not pick up.

I don't think people really got swayed by these threads. People don't get swayed this way. Honestly, I myself got too passionate about this topic and I know that does not attract others to really listen and understand.

Also, these are people that don't care about co-operation, interdependence, and so many other healthy character traits necessary to co-exist in a community. SO you are dealing with very strong resistance when trying to talk to them, even in a nice way. Because many of us do lots of things because we do care about the community at large.

For a very petty example, I don't care so much to have a bike in the hallway but I know my neighbor does and therefore I go all the way around the house to the backyard and put it away every day.

BUt I did read both sides and did get more frightened by reading the accounts of those with the measles.

I am b'h expecting. And if the measles does not stop by the time I give birth, there is a very high chance I will not be going back to work, or taking the baby anywhere even the dr.'s office, for at least the first 6 months, until I can give the shot.

As an aside, isn't it funny how the lives of many vaxxers are being PHYSICALLY and LIFE ALTERING-LY threatened by the other side, yet it's the anti-vaxxers who are screaming hate??????

Last edited by happyness on Fri, May 10 2019, 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total

happyness

Fri, May 10 2019, 4:20 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Wait, there's such a thing as overdoing it with vaccines? I think we've long hit our mark.

Ever heard of the term whitewashing??????
That's what you are doing now.

amother

Yellow

Fri, May 10 2019, 8:38 am

Laiya wrote:

Does he say that somewhere else? In the sentence you just quoted, he doesn't say that.

Find the sentence I quoted in the context of the article, and unless I am misunderstanding in a big way, in which case, please enlighten me, this is exactly what he's saying.

Laiya

Fri, May 10 2019, 9:08 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Find the sentence I quoted in the context of the article, and unless I am misunderstanding in a big way, in which case, please enlighten me, this is exactly what he's saying.

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

He lost me at this sentence:
Quote:
Scheibner’s ideas ignore the many other studies showing that vaccines don’t cause SIDS, or that vaccinations actually reduce the risk of SIDS. In relation to the vaccine in question, DTP and later DTaP, at least one study shows that higher rates of use of the vaccine are correlated with reduced rates of SIDS.

Because DTaP causes SIDS less often than DTP, the author concludes that vaccinations reduce the risk of SIDS? I mean, SIDS is listed on nearly every vaccine insert as a possible, albeit rare, side effect. Where's the logic in this statement?

He's not comparing the risk of SIDS when taking the DTaP, versus the risk of SIDS when taking the DTP. He's comparing the risk of SIDS when taking EITHER the DTP or the DTaP, versus the risk of SIDS when not receiving any vaccine.

From above, there are "many other studies showing that vaccines don’t cause SIDS, or that vaccinations actually reduce the risk of SIDS."

But if you're only interested in either the DTaP or the DTP, and not the risk of SIDS from vaccines in general (which is actually a lower risk than when taking no vaccines), there's "at least one study [that] shows that higher rates of use of the vaccine [ie, DTaP or DTP] are correlated with reduced rates of SIDS [as well]."

southernbubby

Fri, May 10 2019, 9:23 am

delicious wrote:

While vaccinating at 6 months is better than nothing, we don't throw caution to the wind and recklessly expose the baby to sick people. There is no guarantee of immunity at that age. I am sure that you will be careful.

The DOH posted that a contagious person was in Evergreen supermarket at the same time that I was and when I moved to Monsey I was re-vaccinated due to lack of immunity but those babies who were exposed may need immune globulin. I don't know if doctors depend on the 6 month shot in cases of actual exposure. I do see plenty of babies out in public here but grocery delivery is so common that I am not sure why people with babies don't simply order.

I think that if enough people exclude anti-vaxers, some of them might go ahead and give the shots. A bunch of people in Williamsburg were fined so maybe they need to do that in Monsey. I originally felt sorry for my anti-vax friends whose kids can't go to camp but the camp is 💯% right. Let them stay home where their parents can deal with them if they get sick.

I say that when you give birth, create a mommy and baby group for families who vaccinate so that mothers and babies can safely socialize.

FranticFrummie

Fri, May 10 2019, 9:27 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....._bias

See also:

Logic portal
Psychology portal
iThinking portal
Belief perseverance
Cherry picking
Circular source
Cognitive bias mitigation
Cognitive inertia
Cognitive miser
Conflict of interest
Cultural tracking
Denial
Denialism
Echo chamber (media)
Eisegesis
False consensus effect
Filter bubble
Hostile media effect
Idée fixe (psychology)
List of biases in judgment and decision making
List of memory biases
Observer-expectancy effect
Selective exposure theory
Selective perception
Semmelweis reflex
Woozle effect

This is why we can't have a rational conversation. Banging head

happyness

Sun, May 12 2019, 12:53 am

southernbubby wrote:

So are you saying that even after 6 months and after have given the shot it is still not safe to take a baby out??

I definitely agree that anti-vaxers should be excluded, but it won't happen. We live in a society that is too politically correct. Take a look at all the protected 'chashuva' pedophiles...'how could you maser? He has such a feina mishpacha'...

southernbubby

Sun, May 12 2019, 1:16 am

delicious wrote:

There were some fresh exposures in Monsey recently. We have the same situation with my grandson when he turns 6 months. One nurse practitioner said that it would not be safe to let the baby be around non vaccinated people, even with the 6 month shot. We will see what the pediatrician says.

I see shuls and schools and camps that exclude them and the government closed some Williamsburg yeshivas so political correctness is against the anti-vax movement.

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