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Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations
HPV vax mandate without parental notice
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amother
Olive


 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 12:49 pm
amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:
I think the danger here lies with the control of the nanny state.

You're all fine with it when you believe it's what your kids need in life. What happens when it contradicts your belief?

Do you believe in parental rights or a nanny state?

Does your child deserve a full American education? Close down private education? Lose your cheder and BY schools?
Does your child deserve to learn about relations ed at age 5 as the state wants them to?
Does your child get to do well visits without a parent? Be prescribed Ritalin without your consent?

There is no line when it comes to choosing who has rights over your child. Once you lose your voice it's gone!

You can't pick and choose when it suits you.

Giving your child rights over herself does not make the state a nanny state.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 3:03 pm
Your child's rights have nothing to do with this. Your child does not know his family history and has not researched this medical intervention in all likelihood. Rights would be giving people the knowledge to make a risk benefit analysis for themselves as an individual.
Assuming that the HPV shot has no adverse events is simply ignorance. Assuming that there is no group that is more at risk than others for adverse events is idiocy. Who is in that risk group?
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amother
Gray


 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 3:18 pm
southernbubby wrote:
The vaccine is most effective if given between the ages of 11 and 14 but that may be because a large percentage of young teens are sezually active. After the age of 26, it's mostly a missed opportunity. The cancers take years to develop and are usually survive-able if caught early but there are still 4000 deaths a year from cervical cancer and I am not sure if other HPV cancer deaths are represented in that number.
I do agree that all sezually active teens need to be advised to take the vaccine.
As to the risks of the vaccine, I am sure that there is a small risk but that is one vaccine that could be negotiable, particularly if kids can get it at age 16 if they see that they need it.


No, the point is to give the vaccine before the commencement of s-xual activity so that it can be effective. And it’s easy to say that only bad kids will end up encountering hpv, but things happen, kids slip up, assault, cheating spouse, death, divorce. And hpv is very easy to contract.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 3:45 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
No, the point is to give the vaccine before the commencement of s-xual activity so that it can be effective. And it’s easy to say that only bad kids will end up encountering hpv, but things happen, kids slip up, assault, cheating spouse, death, divorce. And hpv is very easy to contract.


Most cases of HPV go away by themselves. A small percentage of cases develop into cancer and about 10% of those cancers cause fatalities. I don't know what percentage of cervical cancer is caused by HPV but my understanding is that there's more than one type of cervical cancer.
There are people my age who were never vaccinated for HPV and become "swingers" in their old age but may be less at risk due to the fact that these cancers develop over a period of years. I am not sure why it won't help much to receive Gardasil later in life.
I would say that the majority of frum people are at low risk for HPV and related cancers but some will regret not getting the vaccine and it could be a death bed regret.
I feel that with the concern about personal and religious liberties, some vaccines can be used to negotiate and this is one of them.

Also, it doesn't have anything to do with being "bad" or "good" but some vaccines, such as those specifically given to military personnel, are predicated on personal risk. Most people today have several sezual partners during their lifetimes and almost definitely will catch HPV at some point. I don't think that this applies to the majority of religious Jews, Muslims, Xtians, etc. Therefore the level of risk could be taken into consideration. Foregoing it is a gamble.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 4:12 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Most cases of HPV go away by themselves. A small percentage of cases develop into cancer and about 10% of those cancers cause fatalities. I don't know what percentage of cervical cancer is caused by HPV but my understanding is that there's more than one type of cervical cancer.
There are people my age who were never vaccinated for HPV and become "swingers" in their old age but may be less at risk due to the fact that these cancers develop over a period of years. I am not sure why it won't help much to receive Gardasil later in life.
I would say that the majority of frum people are at low risk for HPV and related cancers but some will regret not getting the vaccine and it could be a death bed regret.
I feel that with the concern about personal and religious liberties, some vaccines can be used to negotiate and this is one of them.

Also, it doesn't have anything to do with being "bad" or "good" but some vaccines, such as those specifically given to military personnel, are predicated on personal risk. Most people today have several sezual partners during their lifetimes and almost definitely will catch HPV at some point. I don't think that this applies to the majority of religious Jews, Muslims, Xtians, etc. Therefore the level of risk could be taken into consideration. Foregoing it is a gamble.


You’re clearly not the most educated about hpv and cervical cancer which is a lucky thing. The question on this thread was if a teenager can choose to get themselves vaccinated. And teenagers know more about if they are likely to be s-xually actively then their parents.

Separately, I would argue that frum people are less likely to get the dangerous strains of hpv that cause cervical and other cancers that the vaccine protect against. But we are not risk free as much as we’d like to be. How many relations addict husbands are on imamother for one.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 4:29 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
You’re clearly not the most educated about hpv and cervical cancer which is a lucky thing. The question on this thread was if a teenager can choose to get themselves vaccinated. And teenagers know more about if they are likely to be s-xually actively then their parents.

Separately, I would argue that frum people are less likely to get the dangerous strains of hpv that cause cervical and other cancers that the vaccine protect against. But we are not risk free as much as we’d like to be. How many relations addict husbands are on imamother for one.


I am not sure what I said that you are objecting to. I said that frum people are lower risk but not risk free. I also agree that teens should be allowed to choose over their parents objections but then there are parents who insist on the vaccine and the teen objects so I am not sure anyone should force this.
I agree that the disease can be deadly and cause pesky warts but only a small percentage of the millions of people yearly who contract HPV, die of HPV related cancers. The vaccine is valuable and important but it may be more valuable to some than to others.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 4:34 pm
Who says that the dr will give a full and detailed explanation for the vaccine to the child. I can just imagine the dr asking the nurse to prepare and bring in a vaccine and the dr prepares the arm and tell the child this is a vaccine that will prevent you from dying. All my patients take it. If you dont want it there is a chance you will get cancer and die. So what do you think the child would say??
Or maybe the dr would have a consent form (the child likely wont read or understand the form) ready for the child to sign, right before he jabs her with the waiting needle. Not ok.

Also, 4,000 deaths a year sounds like a very very tiny number. I wonder how far down the list of fatality reasons it comes out.
It's very upsetting that vaccines for noncommunicable diseases may be mandatory very soon in order to go to school and there is no more religious exemption to choose from. It's a very scary thought for me.
Dont forget, the measles are gone but dozens of children are being denied a jewish education and are being marginalized from the community out of sinas chinam. Dont forget the children who wont be accepted to any school ever again.
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unexpected




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 4:40 pm
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
This is baloney my dear.

This is not baloney. This is part of the new regulations that are proposed for this upcoming school year
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 4:41 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Who says that the dr will give a full and detailed explanation for the vaccine to the child. I can just imagine the dr asking the nurse to prepare and bring in a vaccine and the dr prepares the arm and tell the child this is a vaccine that will prevent you from dying. All my patients take it. If you dont want it there is a chance you will get cancer and die. So what do you think the child would say??
Or maybe the dr would have a consent form (the child likely wont read or understand the form) ready for the child to sign, right before he jabs her with the waiting needle. Not ok.

Also, 4,000 deaths a year sounds like a very very tiny number. I wonder how far down the list of fatality reasons it comes out.
It's very upsetting that vaccines for noncommunicable diseases may be mandatory very soon in order to go to school and there is no more religious exemption to choose from. It's a very scary thought for me.
Dont forget, the measles are gone but dozens of children are being denied a jewish education and are being marginalized from the community out of sinas chinam. Dont forget the children who wont be accepted to any school ever again.


You lose when you call protecting infants "sinas chinam." Nobody can have a rational discussion when the public's right to protect itself is labeled as baseless hatred.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 5:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:
You lose when you call protecting infants "sinas chinam." Nobody can have a rational discussion when the public's right to protect itself is labeled as baseless hatred.

Of course.
Sinas chinam always has a REASON. There's always a REASON why it's ok to hate and treat other jews like garbage. Go ahead and blame the victim. They are the real victims and everyone else will continue to go about their daily lives and forget the ongoing suffering that they caused.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 29 2019, 5:10 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Of course.
Sinas chinam always has a REASON. There's always a REASON why it's ok to hate and treat other jews like garbage. Go ahead and blame the victim. They are the real victims and everyone else will continue to go about their daily lives and forget the ongoing suffering that they caused.


The real victims are babies who got measles. The anti-vaxers treated these kids like garbage.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 10:32 am
unexpected wrote:
This is not baloney. This is part of the new regulations that are proposed for this upcoming school year

Exactly.
Wake up people!!!
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devo1982




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 10:47 am
1ofbillions wrote:
I’m not commenting on this specific example because I’m not well educated in this area. But did you see the pic that went around of a public school class on a school trip to an art show, in which a group of boys were standing near an exhibit of female private parts?

There was a woman standing naked, her breasts and vul-va completely exposed, in addition to plastic models of vulvas.

The direction this country is going in is so insane, it terrifies me.


Except it wasn't this country, it was Estonia. And it wasn't a field trip, it appears to have been an art show, specifically around nude female bodies, so if the kids were there, it's because their parents brought them. I would not have been thrilled either, but it's a far different scenario than kids on a field trip being exposed.

Is this "feminist" exposing herself to children?

The link does contain an image of the woman without her clothes on, so I will copy/paste the text of the article as well:

Claim
A photograph shows "a feminist" exposing herself to schoolchildren on a field trip.

Rating
Decontextualized

Reporting
In late July 2019, the following tweet appeared, claiming that the following image shows a “feminist” exposing herself to children on a school field trip (image and screenshot of the original tweet).

The poster claimed — without any additional citation or context — that the photograph shows a school trip gone awry. However, in response to requests for additional information about the image, he demurred:

I seriously have left wing people in my mentions asking if there’s context for a fat old woman flashing a bunch of school age boys. No you ridiculous nuts there’s no more context. The context is leftism is eating your brain. You don’t flash kids. Ever. For any reason.

Commenters seemed to assume across the board that the image was captured in the United States; one iteration claimed the photograph was taken in New York City. Subsequent blog posts re-asserted that the individuals shown were schoolchildren.

Commenters on the original July 25 2019 tweet noted that the image was from an event in Estonia — context that seemed to have been left out of the tweet and earlier replies:

Well since you don’t like the USA maybe you should go to ESTONIA so you can protest this art exhibit. NO AMERICAN FIELD TRIP IS GOING TO ESTONIA!

At that point, the original poster said that it was sent to him by a “follower from Estonia”:

Oh and it was sent to me by a follower from Estonia who was upset by it.

Other commenters noted that context for the image was difficult to come by due to language barriers — but a reverse image search led to a July 2 2019 article about the events shown in the image, and a rough translation reported that the photograph came from a Saturday night opening of an art exhibit in Estonia — not a “school trip”:

[In June 2019] at the opening of the exhibition “Naine ja naine” (“Woman and Woman”) an unbelievable incident occurred in Pärnu : at the end of her speech, the artist, feminist and LGBT activist Mare Thrall took off her dress and remained [unclothed]. Thus, the woman expressed her protest against the works of the artist Marco Mäetamma. According to feminists, in his works there is violence in the image of the female body. During the performance, Thrall covered the works of Maetamma with sheets with anti-sexist slogans, and she hung a large piece of fabric on the door of the exhibition hall with his paintings, which she wrote “No” but ”can not be an excuse for sexism”.

Another July 2019 news article, this one in Russian, reported:

Estonian feminist artist has demonstrated the real beauty of the female body

An unbelievable incident occurred at the opening of the Naine ja naine exhibition (Woman and Woman) in Pärnu: at the end of her speech, the artist, feminist and LGBT activist Mare Thrall took off her dress and remained [naked].

Thus, the woman expressed her protest against the works of the artist Marco Mäetamma. According to feminists, in his works there is violence in the image of the female body. During the performance, Thrall covered the works of Maetamma with sheets with anti-sexist slogans, and she hung a large piece of fabric on the door of the exhibition hall with his paintings, which she wrote “No” [and] “cannot be an excuse for sexism.”

The woman in the image, artist Mare Tralla, posted about the images on Facebook in June 2019; a gallery listing described the event as its “26th International Nude Art Show ‘Man & Woman,'” making the shock around the photograph seem that much more manufactured:

Tralla uploaded a video of her June 2019 protest to Vimeo, in a clip titled “No ‘But’ Can Be Used as an Excuse for Sexism!” That video clearly shows that the context of Tralla’s nudity is a protest at the opening of a specific exhibition for what was described clearly in advance as a “nude art show.”

A viral tweet claimed that a “feminist” undressed in front of schoolchildren on a field trip without any context for the claim. That photograph was actually taken during a Saturday night protest at an Estonia gallery in June 2019. Most still images and video of the protest showed adult gallery-goers, not children. Additionally, the exhibit Tralla protested was billed as a “nude art show,” meaning anyone who brought young people would have already been aware there would be nudity. Context was omitted to a point so severe that later iterations of the rumor included the claim that the photograph was taken in New York City.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 10:54 am
Will the vaccine prevent warts?
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amother
Black


 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 11:27 am
amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:
I think the danger here lies with the control of the nanny state.

You're all fine with it when you believe it's what your kids need in life. What happens when it contradicts your belief?

Do you believe in parental rights or a nanny state?

Does your child deserve a full American education? Close down private education? Lose your cheder and BY schools?
Does your child deserve to learn about relations ed at age 5 as the state wants them to?
Does your child get to do well visits without a parent? Be prescribed Ritalin without your consent?

There is no line when it comes to choosing who has rights over your child. Once you lose your voice it's gone!

You can't pick and choose when it suits you.


I think this is one of the first times that a poster actually changed my mind from my knee-jerk reaction. Thanks, Babyblue. I agree.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 2:33 pm
When researchers studied cervical cancer, they studied the two groups of women who had the lowest rate of it-Orthodox Jewish women and nuns. They found that the reason they have the lowest rate is because they are the most likely to be monogamous or celibate.
They also have lowest rate of HIV and smoking. These are the factors that can cause the virus on the slight chance that it didn't go away by itself, turn cancerous which is easy to diagnose from a pap smear.
When Farrah Fawcett Majors (remember her?) died from it, the radio called it "a rare kind of cancer".
The researcher who made the vaccine stated publicly that she didn't intend for it to be used like this.
Everything stated here can be verified in mainstream media.
The possible risks of this vaccine are certainly not worth it for this kind of thing.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 2:42 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Will the vaccine prevent warts?


Yes
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 2:49 pm
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
When researchers studied cervical cancer, they studied the two groups of women who had the lowest rate of it-Orthodox Jewish women and nuns. They found that the reason they have the lowest rate is because they are the most likely to be monogamous or celibate.
They also have lowest rate of HIV and smoking. These are the factors that can cause the virus on the slight chance that it didn't go away by itself, turn cancerous which is easy to diagnose from a pap smear.
When Farrah Fawcett Majors (remember her?) died from it, the radio called it "a rare kind of cancer".
The researcher who made the vaccine stated publicly that she didn't intend for it to be used like this.
Everything stated here can be verified in mainstream media.
The possible risks of this vaccine are certainly not worth it for this kind of thing.


I would think that religious Muslims and Xtians would also be in that category.
Also, it looks like people have until age 26 to benefit from this vaccine so if a person is going to be either celebate or monogamous until then, there is time to make the decision as a young adult. A promiscuous teen, however, needs the vaccine, even if the parents object.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 04 2019, 4:27 pm
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
When researchers studied cervical cancer, they studied the two groups of women who had the lowest rate of it-Orthodox Jewish women and nuns. They found that the reason they have the lowest rate is because they are the most likely to be monogamous or celibate.
They also have lowest rate of HIV and smoking. These are the factors that can cause the virus on the slight chance that it didn't go away by itself, turn cancerous which is easy to diagnose from a pap smear.
When Farrah Fawcett Majors (remember her?) died from it, the radio called it "a rare kind of cancer".
The researcher who made the vaccine stated publicly that she didn't intend for it to be used like this.
Everything stated here can be verified in mainstream media.
The possible risks of this vaccine are certainly not worth it for this kind of thing.


Farrah Fawcett died of anal cancer, not that it is relevant to your post.

Of course cervical cancer is less common among monogamous women. That is well known; it has been known for years. The problem is that for a variety of reasons -- rape, marrying Ba'alei Teshuvah who may have had sex before they became religious, having affairs, going OTD, or other straying -- you can't be sure that your children will only have one partner throughout their lives. And just because your child's life isn't perfect doesn't mean their health shouldn't be protected.

I feel comfortable giving the HPV to my kids, but I agree that in our community, we're in general at less risk for HPV than others. I think it's wise to give it, but I would not fight for the HPV the way I'd fight for MMR, Tdap, and Polio vaccines.
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devo1982




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 05 2019, 7:15 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Farrah Fawcett died of anal cancer, not that it is relevant to your post.
.


But it is relevant, because it’s one of the cancers that HPV can cause. It’s not just about cervical cancer. From WebMD: “Certain types of HPV cause genital warts. Other HPV types can make cells turn cancerous. You've probably heard that HPV causes cervical cancer, but it also causes less common cancers of the v*lva, v*gina, p*nis, an*s, head, and neck.” I think the point is that when Farrah died, these were much more rare. There’s also growing evidence that vaccine rates
are causing overall declines akin to herd immunity, which is hugely encouraging. https://www.nbcnews.com/health.....22206
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