Disciplining the defiant

amother

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:24 pm

Help me understand this kid! and I need advice on how best to discipline.
Kindergarten boy - he is generally happy, good-natured, sensitive to others.. but often doesn't listen and gets angry a decent amount
Often when I tell him to do something, he'll say no... and he will wait to hear what the potential punishment will be in order to determine what is more worthwhile. He calculates the punishment vs whatever mischief he's up to... and if the punishment isn't "bad" enough, he'll choose to continue his mischief.

He also threatens - so if I tell him to go to bed and he doesn't listen, the natural consequence will be no story time (he took too long, so no more time...) he'll then spend the next hour making more trouble - throwing toys around, spilling out the hamper, and constantly threaten "If you don't read me a story... Ill..." and he'll keep going to the next threat as long as he can.

then he'll wake up the other kids, etc.

Another ex: if I feel he needs a time out, he won't go... so then if I pick him up, he will physically kick and scratch me... then he'll try to escape the room or lock the door to the room and make trouble...

The best I've come up with is A) sticking to a punishment once I say I'll do it, I must go through with it (even if it makes my night harder and B) ignoring the inevitable outburst / anger he has after I go through with the punishment (throwing toys, screaming, threatening) - I don't give it attention

Any other tips? How can I instill a natural "fear" or respect without having to resort to punishment? How can I get him to listen more and care about being punished, regardless of the punishment?
Anyone have any ideas that have worked? Thanks!

behappy2

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:40 pm

Of course my kid is not EXACTLY like yours so you need to feel your kid out. Some things I went through with my son was him destroying my clothing, breaking things, throwing blocks at me after I have him a consequence or said no. He also pulled down my skirt, ran away from time out..I tried giving him consequences and he would violate the consequence and I had to keep escalating it.

FOR ME what worked was a COMBINATION of things:
1.Connecting to him in different ways. There were 4 books that really helped
Playful parenting, The explosive child but not sure that's what it's called...a book that teaches you how compromise with your kid. Another one was attachment focused parenting and lastly a Son Rise book.
2.consistent discipline
3. Being reasonable-I stopped asking him to dress himself, put his stuff away etc..I know they are hard for him. I focus on the things that really really count.
4.When all else fails I bribe him. I only do this if the long term ramifications of him not coming through will be worse than the lesson of the bribe. Examples would be school refusal because of anxiety related issues that he can't really control.
5.sometimes we just have huge tantrums. I learned to be ok with it. He usually will not ruin property anymore or hurt anyone. I tell myself that it's not my place to take away all his pain.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:45 pm

I think you need to move away from this o punitive approach that seems to dominate your parenting. It seems like everything is about consequences and punishments, and for a child with this nature, it backfires, as you are well aware.

I would move towards a more positive, collaborative, approach, and incorporate a lot of choice and feeling of him being in control into his day.

amother

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:51 pm

yksraya wrote:

For bedtime, a chart with stickers works best. My kids like to have a day off from school and eat lunch in pizza shop as a reward for completing a chart.

I find that positivity is better than punishments. If they get enough compliments and love, they don't look for negative attention.

Yes, have used chart with stickers and works really well!! but only for things on the chart...
I try to focus as much as possible on pointing out his positive, giving lots of positive attention, I also let a lot of his mischief slide (as is typical for his age), but still this comes up often

amother

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:52 pm

behappy2 wrote:

Thanks!

amother

Tue, May 07 2019, 8:58 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

At first, I was taken aback by your idea that I have a "punitive approach" that "dominates my parenting", but then I had to laugh... It's interesting how ppl interpret a question in a post as an idea for my overall parenting. I try to focus on positivity, always pointing out when he does something good and applauding his achievements. Lots of laughs, love, and play time. I also try to make light of some of his mischief (whenever possible) so I'm "in" on the fun, and not saying "don't do this/that" all the time AND give him choice whenever possible.
BUT when he has outright chutzpa and certainly when his behavior is harmful to another person (whether parent, sibling, or friend) - well that, I don't believe can be rewarded with positivity and must be addressed... Hence my question regarding punishment and how it can be more effective when needed

Thanks for answering though, it's always good to be reminded to be positive with kids Smile

ddmom

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:01 pm

Wow! It sounds just like some of my boys!!
I know exactly what you are describing.
1- almost always try to stay away from power struggles, the consequences are not worth it.
2- read 1,2,3 magic! It works really well. There's also a kids version to explain to your child what the " new rules " are.
3- I tell him " bedtime stories" that he loves about a boy that was playing outside and didn't want to come in & didn't want to listen to his mom....(basically his life, and I describe his "emotions" and find "solutions"!) Smile

Zehava

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:09 pm

Seems like you’re locked in an ongoing power struggle. In a power struggle the adult will always lose. Why? Because an adult hopefully has boundaries that they won’t cross but a child doesn’t.
You gotta lay down your weapons and stop trying to bend him to your will by force. Kids like him generally have a strong willpower which if channeled right can accomplish so much!
Chill out. Don’t give direct commands unless absolutely necessary. And show him lots of love and empathy. Have fun together. Be interested in his life. Show pride at his accomplishments. He’s still so little! He needs you. Never forget that.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

That's my point. Using punishment as a method of chinuch with this child will likely make things worse. And if he is misbehaving a lot, there is a lot of punishment or threats going on. That's what you described in your post.

I recommend that you move away from the idea that punishment is necessary, and utilize a more educational approach. Be proactive and discuss sticky situations ahead of time. Use redirection (not punishment) when he is acting out. Stop reacting in a punitive way to "chutzpah" and Help him express himself in a more appropriate way.

A gentler approach, while at the same time firm and educational, will be most helpful with him

amother

Copper

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:19 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Not op, but I would like to hear more specifically how you would implement this. For example:
1. Child refusing to get into/ stay in bed. Not a consistent problem that needs a chart, just when the mood strikes him.
2. Child intentionally hurting sibling, unprovoked
3. Child refusing to go inside in the evening, after being notified at a few intervals how much time will be remaining to play outside, even with something to look forward to inside. Again, not a consistent problem, happens sporadically.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:29 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

1. Collaborate with him ahead of time, what bedtime routine would be helpful to him, why he finds it difficult to stay in bed, what could be done to help him, etc.

2. Redirection. Firmly state that hitting is not ok, and now it's time to...play Lego, read a book, eat dinner, etc.

3.Again, collaborative problem solving, like with #1.

amother

Copper

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:44 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Again, this is not a situation that you can anticipate being problematic, because you generally have a routine that works well. Every once in a while he decides that he'd rather stay out of bed/ out of the house indefinitely, and refuses to collaborate on a solution. His way or the highway. Or, he keeps knowingly proposing unrealistic solutions.

Regarding number 2, I don't see how this prevents recurrence of a behavior that crosses the line. He wanted to hurt his sibling, he accomplished that- sibling is now sobbing- and mommy reminds him that hitting is not allowed, let's play with Lego...?

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 07 2019, 9:52 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

The most effective way to do this is to discuss the situation after he calms down and prepare ahead for when/if it happens again. In the moment, he won't be able to to collaborate and problem solve. He will be too emotionally worked up and unavailable intellectually.

The hitting behavior could be coming from many sources. You would need to really understand why he is hitting for the most effective approach. Is he hitting because he is bored? He is looking for excitement, a reaction from sister or Mommy? Does he get a kick out of seeing everyone get worked up? Is he feeling ignored and needing attention? Is hitting and making trouble the best way he knows to get attention? Is he hungry, frustrated, tired, bored, etc. and doesn't know how to express it? Does he need something else and doesn't have the words for it?
The key is to be firm about the behavior and redirect in a way that addresses the underlying issue and need. That is where being a smart parent comes in.

Punishing him would likely not accomplish anything, would certainly feed a negative cycle, would certainly not ensure he doesn't do it again, and would likely give him all the lovely attention and feedback that negative behavior brings

amother

Copper

Tue, May 07 2019, 10:03 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

So what are you doing in the moment? It's late and you need to bring your brood inside. He's refusing to come in. Not now, not in five minutes, not in ten minutes, not to play with his Lego or take a bubble bath or watch a WhatsApp video of his cousins. He's staying outside until he decides he's ready to come in. What are you doing?

dankbar

Tue, May 07 2019, 10:20 pm

I wrote a whole drasha how you can be positive & proactive but got deleted. Will start again.
For bedtime:
Tell him, if you are in bed when clock hits this number, I will tell you a bedtime story. I can't wait to tell my tzadikl a story. So get ready fast so we can start. When you are ready, go to your bed, I will be waiting for you there.

Catch him doing things right. When you see him packing away toys, come to him with a candy, I am so proud of you so I'm treating you now. Not a bribe before.

I have yummy dessert whoever finishes the meal. Finish your meal fast so I can give you the yummy dessert. When you are done with your plate come tell me, so that I can give you the dessert.

You have to avoid getting into a fight with him. Stop the power struggles!

dankbar

Tue, May 07 2019, 10:30 pm

For a sibling who is hitting:
When he calms down can you discuss:
Why did you hit your bro? You wanted the truck? Can you think of a way that you can get the truck without hitting him next time? Do you think that your bro also likes the truck? So how do you think he feels now when you hit him? Or took away the truck? Just like you like it, he likes it as well. Can the two of you brainstorm how you can both be happy, both get the truck, without fighting?

Or when they start fighting if it's not violent yet, can you tell them I am not getting involved in your fight, the two of you are old enough & smart enough to find a solution & way to share or make shulem without fighting! Let me see how you do that!
If escalates & gets violent you first need to separate the two that they shouldn't hurt each others

amother

Ecru

Tue, May 07 2019, 10:35 pm

I see I’m the voice of dissent here , but sometimes you do need to punish. If it’s balanced with mostly positive/ “collaborative” parenting , your child will be just fine. He will learn that some actions are just never ok and there are consequences . BUT you need to limit punishment to very specific circumstances, and have a very specific punishment or consequence ready to implement which was discussed with him previously. Whether it’s time out with a timer or earlier bedtime , it needs to be something that matters to him. And that you can enforce . My son knows that hurting is never allowed and he will go to his room, kicking and screaming , for five minutes . I used to have to carry him ( and he’s 6!) but now he just goes up himself when I say “ time out. “ And it’s happening less and less ..