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Invitations that are not invitations
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 8:37 am
watergirl wrote:
I agree that this is a “thing” in some communities and not others. I am a BT and when I got the first invitation like this (with no rsvp and no mention of dinner), I was thoroughly confused. I called up a friend who was also invited and asked her. Omg I still shudder at her humiliation - she actually was also confused (before I even called her) and assumed it was an error, so she called the baalei simcha to rsvp and said that they must have forgotten to include the card so she is replying via phone. They told her she is only invited for the kabalas panim/chuppah/dancing. This is how I learned about this thing. It was many many years ago and since then, I’ve received many invitations like this but I still cringe when I remember my friend’s story. Fwiw, when I got married, in my community (modern orth), we would invite people to “crash”. Essentially the same thing as the no rsvp card invite, but it was verbal. It was so common in my community that the caterers knew to ask if the host wanted a “crashers table” to he set up. Really the same concept but a different way to go about it; seems more up front to me.

Recently, we received an invitation to a wedding that was great - clearly spelled out that they would like us to come for KP/chuppah/dancing. But when we got there, the execution was horrible and it was actually kind of embarrassing. Not the fault of the baalei simcha who meant well, but was a bad experience.


But OP and Lilac are saying it's an ongoing issue of invitations not being "really" invitations. I get the first time it can be confusing - the not understanding that there are different parts of the wedding and each one has its own invitation- but they still seem to be confused each time they get an invitation if they are "really" invited or not. Watergirl, you are a good person to ask. Are YOU still confused? Or do you have it down pat by now? Why is there ongoing confusion about this beyond the very first invitation?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 10:58 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Then how about calling a friend or two in your circles or people in the baal hasimcha's circles and discuss it with them. Just ask them what their opinion is. Straight communication is not a bad thing.


Straight up communication on the invitation is a must. I am either super oblivious or super popular because I never got a partial invitation.

If you don't want me at any part of your simcha, you must clearly warn me away; otherwise, I will pop in at my convenience.
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 1:30 pm
Squishy wrote:
Straight up communication on the invitation is a must. I am either super oblivious or super popular because I never got a partial invitation.

If you don't want me at any part of your simcha, you must clearly warn me away; otherwise, I will pop in at my convenience.


It's usually not a matter of not wanted but rather not expected. I'm sure that you are greeted with great joy. In my community most people don't have the time nor the energy to be out all evening. You breathe a sigh of relief when dinner card is not included. When I get a dinner card and I only come to say mazel tov the host is usually hurt. I have to explain why I can't stay for the whole evening. If I don't get a dinner card but show up early enough that I really could sit down and eat if I would want to I am usually asked by the host to please sit down and eat something before I leave.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 1:52 pm
amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:
OP and Lilac, I'm trying to understand your confusion.

You are saying there is a hidden code that only some of us know that tell us whether we're REALLY invited or not. I feel bad that this has obviously caused you angst.

The way I see it is actually simple - nothing hidden, and in fact, straightforward:

An invitation to a wedding without a response card: you are invited to the reception (kabbalas panim) and ceremony (chuppah). The invitation notes the times of these 2 events.

Dinner: separate invitation only. If no dinner card, you are not invited to the dinner.

That's it! If you aren't invited to the dinner, you don't owe a gift. You are just popping into to say mazel tov, perhaps catching a bite or two from the buffet, perhaps watching the ceremony. But you aren't a sit down guest, so no gift needed.

I guess I'm giving away my FFB-hood here, but I do not understand why it's confusing. I don't mean to sound patronizing. I hope, by page 4 of the thread now, you are good to go.


SIGH.

That's wonderful. I do get it. I've gotten it from years of being on this board.

But how about YOU get that invitations of this type are limited to a very small sub-set of right-wing Jewish society, and that outside of that group -- and perhaps readers here -- its not done. Its the sort of thing that would get you labeled as a money-grubbing bridezilla. These are your B-list people, and you're making it obvious, which is not considered polite in general society.

So instead of being so ethnocentric and "our way is wonderful and everyone must understand it," how about engaging in a little clarity, and maybe even a little sympathy for people like OP who don't live in your little enclave. Instead of leaving them to wonder, make it clear.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 1:54 pm
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
SIGH.

That's wonderful. I do get it. I've gotten it from years of being on this board.

But how about YOU get that invitations of this type are limited to a very small sub-set of right-wing Jewish society, and that outside of that group -- and perhaps readers here -- its not done. Its the sort of thing that would get you labeled as a money-grubbing bridezilla. These are your B-list people, and you're making it obvious, which is not considered polite in general society.

So instead of being so ethnocentric and "our way is wonderful and everyone must understand it," how about engaging in a little clarity, and maybe even a little sympathy for people like OP who don't live in your little enclave. Instead of leaving them to wonder, make it clear.


I'm far from right wing. If the invitation doesn't reference dinner - (or lunch) - the person reading it doesn't get dinner (or lunch).
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 1:56 pm
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
SIGH.

That's wonderful. I do get it. I've gotten it from years of being on this board.

But how about YOU get that invitations of this type are limited to a very small sub-set of right-wing Jewish society, and that outside of that group -- and perhaps readers here -- its not done. Its the sort of thing that would get you labeled as a money-grubbing bridezilla. These are your B-list people, and you're making it obvious, which is not considered polite in general society.

So instead of being so ethnocentric and "our way is wonderful and everyone must understand it," how about engaging in a little clarity, and maybe even a little sympathy for people like OP who don't live in your little enclave. Instead of leaving them to wonder, make it clear.


In general society, none of those b list people would have been invited to the wedding in the first place. This is definitely one of those cultural nuances that so many people struggle with when trying to integrate into a new community.
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 1:56 pm
This is far from being a frum issue. Many people have guests that aren't invited to all of the wedding.

https://www.invitationsbydawn......ding/
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:00 pm
gamanit wrote:
This is far from being a frum issue. Many people have guests that aren't invited to all of the wedding.

https://www.invitationsbydawn......ding/


And in English "reception" happens after the ceremony (which can be guest limited). Kabalat Panim translated as 'reception' confused those who aren't in the 'know'.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:01 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
I'm far from right wing. If the invitation doesn't reference dinner - (or lunch) - the person reading it doesn't get dinner (or lunch).


Just so you understand what I mean, from the wedding site, The Knot.

Quote:
Q: We are trying to keep our guest list at around 175 people for cost reasons (it's the most we can afford to feed), but we certainly could have more guests -- as long as they didn't eat. Is it okay to invite people just for the dancing portion of the reception, but not the wedding ceremony or the dinner?

A: Some ideas make sense on paper, but in practice...let's put it this way, would you want to be one of the people who showed up after dinner? While it is permissible to only invite some guests to the reception (keeping the ceremony intimate), inviting only some guests to the second half of the reception is a major faux pas. Just invite those wedding guests you can afford to include in your entire celebration.

If you really would like to have more people, look into ways you can make it work within your budget. For example, you might not be able to afford a seated multicourse dinner for 225, but you may be able to make a light buffet, passed hors d'oeuvres, or a luncheon work. Talk to your reception site manager or caterer about options to see if anything can work with your expanded list and set budget. A little creativity can go a long way in having the wedding you want.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:04 pm
gamanit wrote:
This is far from being a frum issue. Many people have guests that aren't invited to all of the wedding.

https://www.invitationsbydawn......ding/


Yes. People have private ceremonies, then invite people to the reception -- where they are fed. Completely different issue.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:06 pm
amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:
But OP and Lilac are saying it's an ongoing issue of invitations not being "really" invitations. I get the first time it can be confusing - the not understanding that there are different parts of the wedding and each one has its own invitation- but they still seem to be confused each time they get an invitation if they are "really" invited or not. Watergirl, you are a good person to ask. Are YOU still confused? Or do you have it down pat by now? Why is there ongoing confusion about this beyond the very first invitation?

Nope, no longer confused. I got it right away after that one time. I chalked it up to part of the frum world that is nuanced (like everything else) and I filed away the information for the next time.

This is one of those things that differs based on community. When I was MO, this was never a thing, like I said in my first post. Word-of-mouth invitations WERE a thing though, and then it was very clear by default that you are invited to come say mazel tov and dance but not for anything else, other than the shmorg if there is one. But not every community has this concept.

This conversation is the beauty of this group! It should be opening the eyes of those who send a chuppah only invitation (no meal card) to someone who is not part of their immediate community to just be clear - you never know if your invitation will be the first one like this that your intended is receiving. The hurt that my friend had, the embarrassment, could have been avoided if the invitation had been clear like the one that I received recently that said I was invited to KP/Chuppah/dancing. Why should someone have that initial embarrassment in the first place? Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:06 pm
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
Yes. People have private ceremonies, then invite people to the reception -- where they are fed. Completely different issue.


There are buffet tables set up for kabalas panim and by dancing (very often with hot dishes if someone wants to make it their dinner). In a community where this is the norm, what on earth is wrong with this? There are tables set up for those coming after the formal meal generally. I think this allows people to share their simcha with more people. Wouldn't you be more hurt if you weren't invited at all?
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:08 pm
watergirl wrote:
Nope, no longer confused. I got it right away after that one time. I chalked it up to part of the frum world that is nuanced (like everything else) and I filed away the information for the next time.

This is one of those things that differs based on community. When I was MO, this was never a thing, like I said in my first post. Word-of-mouth invitations WERE a thing though, and then it was very clear by default that you are invited to come say mazel tov and dance but not for anything else, other than the shmorg if there is one. But not every community has this concept.

This conversation is the beauty of this group! It should be opening the eyes of those who send a chuppah only invitation (no meal card) to someone who is not part of their immediate community to just be clear - you never know if your invitation will be the first one like this that your intended is receiving. The hurt that my friend had, the embarrassment, could have been avoided if the invitation had been clear like the one that I received recently that said I was invited to KP/Chuppah/dancing. Why should someone have that initial embarrassment in the first place? Do you understand what I'm trying to say?


I have no idea why whoever invited your friend was rude to her. In my circles everyone is greeted with a smile. The only way someone would even find out that they weren't expected for the meal is if they notice that others in the same group as them are only coming for dancing.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:16 pm
gamanit wrote:
I have no idea why whoever invited your friend was rude to her. In my circles everyone is greeted with a smile. The only way someone would even find out that they weren't expected for the meal is if they notice that others in the same group as them are only coming for dancing.

My friend called the bride’s mother and said that she didn't get a reply card, so she is RSVPing over the phone that she is coming. And the mom explained.
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:20 pm
watergirl wrote:
My friend called the bride’s mother and said that she didn't get a reply card, so she is RSVPing over the phone that she is coming. And the mom explained.


That's still rude. The mom should have said "Oh I am so sorry about that. We will be very happy to see you there. We forgot to put a dinner card in your envelope" at which point your friend would be able to ask what a dinner card is.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:21 pm
gamanit wrote:
That's still rude. The mom should have said "Oh I am so sorry about that. We will be very happy to see you there. We forgot to put a dinner card in your envelope" at which point your friend would be able to ask what a dinner card is.

Agree.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:26 pm
gamanit wrote:
There are buffet tables set up for kabalas panim and by dancing (very often with hot dishes if someone wants to make it their dinner). In a community where this is the norm, what on earth is wrong with this? There are tables set up for those coming after the formal meal generally. I think this allows people to share their simcha with more people. Wouldn't you be more hurt if you weren't invited at all?


Understanding that I'm from a different segment of society -- no.

I understand that weddings are expensive, and you can't invite everyone. But it would be more hurtful to be "b-listed" -- good enough to come, not good enough to pay for.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:32 pm
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
Yes. People have private ceremonies, then invite people to the reception -- where they are fed. Completely different issue.


not really. Its evidence that a wedding invitation doesn't 'generally mean' come to all events surrounding this wedding.
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:35 pm
I am FFB and I am well versed in the invitation without a response card.

As a community, moving forward, how nice would it be if people printed a second separate invitation – they are not so expensive one can use Zazzle or something similar, for those who are not invited to the entire wedding and the meal. It could clearly state:

Mr. and Mrs. Ploni......
Would love for you to join us for Kabbalat panim and the Chuppah of our children....

Or
Please join us for dessert and dancing celebrating the wedding of......

I unfortunately feel that people would be too embarrassed to send such an invitation, however, if that's what you're inviting the person for, state it clearly, don't put the onus on them.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Mon, May 13 2019, 2:41 pm
amother [ Lilac ] wrote:
Understanding that I'm from a different segment of society -- no.

I understand that weddings are expensive, and you can't invite everyone. But it would be more hurtful to be "b-listed" -- good enough to come, not good enough to pay for.


You are paid for. There is food at the KP.

Its not about you - its about the relationship. Not everyone is a good friend.
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