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Anti Vax Event??
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 11:00 am
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
Let us call it misleading instead of lying


Absolutely not misleading. The text in the article makes it very clear. You can't expect the column headings in the table to read "children receiving vaccinations including the MMR" and "children receiving vaccinations but not the MMR". That would make it *harder* for people to understand. Column headings are always terse; you go to the article to find out more about what the table says.

I was not confused for an instant about what this article was saying. And if you had taken just a few more minutes to read the articles, you would not have been confused either.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 11:00 am
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
In my life I have seen how a minority opinion turned out to be right.

Only G-d knows the real truth of how harmful vaccinations are.


We don't know what medicine and science will say about vaccines 20, 50, or 100 years from now. At present, catching measles is not always the safest thing to do and all it took was a few careless anti-vaxers who passed the disease to infants and now you expect everyone to say live and let live?
What do you want from us now?
Stop vaccinating?
Stop protesting anti-vaxers on social media?
Stop excluding you from schools, shuls and social events?
Call the mayor and demand the re-opening of yeshivas?
Go to Albany and demand that exemptions stay legal?
If you expect any or all of the above, I say that you are being extremely unrealistic but I can't blame you for wanting it. I can blame you for creating the situation that led to this.
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yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 12:56 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:


I'll give you lies on both sides
PIE referenced a Danish study of unvaxxed vs vaxxed. anyone who knows how to read a study and goes to the original study sees that it was vaccinated children vs vaccinated children who didn't get the MMR
(pro vaxxers are very busy debunking Wakefield and his MMR autism study. most anti vaxxers don't base their decision on that)

Now let me tell you one little secret. Autism is in the gene, and those kids would've been autistic regardless if they took the shots or not. The reason there are more autistic kids who took shots than those who didn't is simple. Their are b'h more pro vaxers than anti vaxers.

I do know a thing or 2 about autism, I do have an autistic brother, highly autistic. When he was a kid, my parents where told he is the most severe case in the whole USA.

My brother was not vaxed. He was a very sweet boy till he was about 5. He maybe showed symptoms, but was verbal, smart and had done all milestones. Then one day it suddenly stopped, he spoke slurred and began to behave different. Stopped using the bathroom and some more milestones.

Some kids start showing symptoms which either worsens or not early on, and to some it comes suddenly. So if a child that is autistic, gets diagnosed with autism around the same time as he took the MMR it mistakenly can get linked to MMR, but in reality it would've happened anyway had they not done the MMR.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:06 pm
yksraya wrote:
Now let me tell you one little secret. Autism is in the gene, and those kids would've been autistic regardless if they took the shots or not. The reason there are more autistic kids who took shots than those who didn't is simple. Their are b'h more pro vaxers than anti vaxers.

I do know a thing or 2 about autism, I do have an autistic brother, highly autistic. When he was a kid, my parents where told he is the most severe case in the whole USA.

My brother was not vaxed. He was a very sweet boy till he was about 5. He maybe showed symptoms, but was verbal, smart and had done all milestones. Then one day it suddenly stopped, he spoke slurred and began to behave different. Stopped using the bathroom and some more milestones.

Some kids start showing symptoms which either worsens or not early on, and to some it comes suddenly. So if a child that is autistic, gets diagnosed with autism around the same time as he took the MMR it mistakenly can get linked to MMR, but in reality it would've happened anyway had they not done the MMR.


Yksraya, I believe amother seashell's objection was not to the table, which indeed does not indicate an increased rate of autism for kids receiving the MMR. (The amount of kids with autism is certainly greater, but that's because the proportion of kids who got the MMR is higher.) I believe she was objecting to the fact that the group of children who did not get the MMR is referred to as "unvaccinated," while in fact they received vaccinations (such as DTaP and polio); they just didn't receive the MMR. I responded to that objection above.

Regarding the genetic component of autism: I think that is universally accepted. However anti-vaxxers have argued that the MMR triggers autism in precisely those who have a genetic predisposition, so arguing for the genetics of autism, according to them, would seem to strengthen their case -- if indeed there was an increased rate of autism in those receiving the MMR. But there is no such increase -- and in fact, in the subgroup of children who received the MMR and who had autistic siblings had a slightly lower rate of autism than would be expected. So that is evidence against the anti-vaxxer's hypothesis.
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yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:39 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Yksraya, I believe amother seashell's objection was not to the table, which indeed does not indicate an increased rate of autism for kids receiving the MMR. (The amount of kids with autism is certainly greater, but that's because the proportion of kids who got the MMR is higher.) I believe she was objecting to the fact that the group of children who did not get the MMR is referred to as "unvaccinated," while in fact they received vaccinations (such as DTaP and polio); they just didn't receive the MMR. I responded to that objection above.

Regarding the genetic component of autism: I think that is universally accepted. However anti-vaxxers have argued that the MMR triggers autism in precisely those who have a genetic predisposition, so arguing for the genetics of autism, according to them, would seem to strengthen their case -- if indeed there was an increased rate of autism in those receiving the MMR. But there is no such increase -- and in fact, in the subgroup of children who received the MMR and who had autistic siblings had a slightly lower rate of autism than would be expected. So that is evidence against the anti-vaxxer's hypothesis.

The reason I responded was more to explain and clarify about why autism can mistakenly be linked to MMR. Not as an agreeing or disagreeing to that study. I used to be anti vax out of fear of not having a child like my brother. But the older I got and with some research I got my facts straight.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:43 pm
yksraya wrote:
The reason I responded was more to explain and clarify about why autism can mistakenly be linked to MMR. Not as an agreeing or disagreeing to that study. I used to be anti vax out of fear of not having a child like my brother. But the older I got and with some research I got my facts straight.


I understand. I am just taking a bit of care to make sure our arguments aren't twisted by the anti-vaxxers.
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yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:47 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I understand. I am just taking a bit of care to make sure our arguments aren't twisted by the anti-vaxxers.

No need, they will twist it anyway. Lol.
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urban gypsy




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:49 pm
yksraya wrote:
The reason there are more autistic kids who took shots than those who didn't is simple. Their are b'h more pro vaxers than anti vaxers.


MIC DROP END OF DISCUSSION! Correlation does not equal causation.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:53 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
MIC DROP END OF DISCUSSION! Correlation does not equal causation.


No, no, urbangypsy, that's not what yksraya is saying. Her point is just one of proportion vs absolute numbers. If there are 1000 people who vax and 100 who don't vax, and and the rate of autism is (say) 2%, one would expect 20 cases of autism among vaxers and 2 cases among the non-vaxers. She is just emphasizing that it is the rate that matters, not the absolute numbers.

It's true that correlation is not equal to causation, but that's not the response to every anti-vax (or pro-vax!) claim.
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urban gypsy




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:55 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
No, no, urbangypsy, that's not what yksraya is saying. Her point is just one of proportion vs absolute numbers. If there are 1000 people who vax and 100 who don't vax, and and the rate of autism is (say) 2%, one would expect 20 cases of autism among vaxers and 2 cases among the non-vaxers. She is just emphasizing that it is the rate that matters, not the absolute numbers.

It's true that correlation is not equal to causation, but that's not the response to every anti-vax (or pro-vax!) claim.


Yes I got that! You explained it very well. Sorry for the correlation does not equal causation non sequitur LOL I just got excited!
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amother




Orange


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 10:52 pm
The one biggest anti vaxer I know sells the story that her child developed autism from shots therefore she doesnt vaccinate. I know first hand that her child has fragile x syndrome and in an effort to hide the hereditary component sells the vaccine story. quite sad and misleading scaring young mothers into not vaccinating.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 5:25 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
The one biggest anti vaxer I know sells the story that her child developed autism from shots therefore she doesnt vaccinate. I know first hand that her child has fragile x syndrome and in an effort to hide the hereditary component sells the vaccine story. quite sad and misleading scaring young mothers into not vaccinating.


Oh, wow. As I've been trying to puzzle out the intransigence of anti-vaxxers, it never occurred to me that one of the motives might be preservation of status on the shidduch market. Little Yitzi and Devoraleh were perfect children until they received the MMR; there's nothing wrong with our family! It would also explain why so often the narrative is: I was pro-vax until one of my children/siblings suffered a vaccine injury.

Ugh.
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amother




Red


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 8:11 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Oh, wow. As I've been trying to puzzle out the intransigence of anti-vaxxers, it never occurred to me that one of the motives might be preservation of status on the shidduch market. Little Yitzi and Devoraleh were perfect children until they received the MMR; there's nothing wrong with our family! It would also explain why so often the narrative is: I was pro-vax until one of my children/siblings suffered a vaccine injury.

Ugh.

Yes- this explains a lot to me.
As for autism- I believe that there are many signs that may be present right away/ sometimes they are so subtle that you miss it if you dont know what youre seeing. I definately saw signs of “different” from birth but noone believed me until my child got biggere and it was more obvious. And I am not ashamed to say it: shots did not cause it or trigger anything: this is him and he is delicious
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 8:54 am
I was thinking about the possibility of vaccine injury as a cover story recently. I am tempted to start spreading rumors that only people with genetic Problems get injured from vaccines and then all their lies will be for naught.

Alas, fighting lies with more untruth is not wise.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 8:58 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Oh, wow. As I've been trying to puzzle out the intransigence of anti-vaxxers, it never occurred to me that one of the motives might be preservation of status on the shidduch market. Little Yitzi and Devoraleh were perfect children until they received the MMR; there's nothing wrong with our family! It would also explain why so often the narrative is: I was pro-vax until one of my children/siblings suffered a vaccine injury.

Ugh.


While that theory makes sense, look at the line-up of clowns that drew a crowd of approximately 2000 at the Atrium on Monday night.

It is a cult following and cults cultivate magical thinking. The pediatrician that spoke is the darling of the alternative medicine crowd which basically promises superior health compared to what conventional medicine delivers.

I would advise anyone who wants more of an assurance of old age to give up homeopathy and move to a blue zone. It won't be frum like Monsey but people do live longer, partly however, because those governments have socialized medicine and in some places, health care workers go door to door and vaccinate people. The long lives in those areas are not as a result of avoiding vaccines but maybe the anti-vaxers here have been told something else.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 9:03 am
youngishbear wrote:
I was thinking about the possibility of vaccine injury as a cover story recently. I am tempted to start spreading rumors that only people with genetic Problems get injured from vaccines and then all their lies will be for naught.

Alas, fighting lies with more untruth is not wise.


The problem comes when it's proven that some children who have autism were never vaccinated.
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