Home

12 measles threads! Enough already!
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations

View latest: 24h 48h 72h


JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 9:02 am
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
There sure are some doctors that are not pro vax. They stay low key and under the radar. A doctor that isn’t vaccinating his patients or that is handing out too many medical exemptions has and will lose his/ her license and credibility. There is a lot of risk involved for a doctor who accepts non vaxxers into his practice. However, there are some brave MDs out there who thankfully still do even though that choice is being taken away.

There is not much decision making involved for a doctor to vaccinate. There is a protocol, a recommended schedule, and doctors are expected to follow it. Those of you who believe doctors are studying and reading up on vaccines all day are a little dillusional.


There are two kinds of doctors who are not uniformly pro-vax: (1) Those who recommend vaccination but will support parents' decision to vaccinate selectively or on a delayed schedule (2) Those who counsel parents to not vaccinate / selectively vaccinate / delay vaccination.

I think the first group of doctors is going to shrink due to the measles outbreak. Why? Because no doctor in that group would want babies being exposed to diseases like the measles; also because those doctors have got to be rethinking what their tolerance toward these parents has wrought for the community at large.

Regarding the second group of doctors: what makes you think they are brave? I've had some interaction with doctors of this sort: anti-vax, pro "natural remedies", opposed to antibiotics, etc. Here's what I've noticed they all had in common:

1.They don't accept insurance.

2. Their fees are exorbitant.

3. They recommend all sorts of expensive "natural" supplements (e.g., regular iron isn't good enough; and you'll never get your kids to eat spinach or broccoli; it's got to be Floradix!) and referrals to crazily expensive specialists, like doctors who do cranio-sacral manipulations or chiropractors or acupuncturists, who also don't accept insurance.

4. When you ask them for evidence that these specialists will help your child's condition, they try to distract you, and tell you anecdotal evidence, but they never provide solid evidence published in a reputable journal.

Been there, done that. Because I'm naturally skeptical, my encounters with such providers have been limited. But it's clear that their motivation is at least partly financial. They're not brave and they're not saints.
Back to top

southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 9:03 am
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
Don’t have any sick people to make money from?Are you for real?


No, I am not for real. The anti-vaxers claim that the effect of the vaccines on the immune system will ensure that the child will always be sick and that doctors know that and vaccinate so that the kids will have an endless need for medical treatment.
Back to top

amother




Blonde


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 9:38 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
There are two kinds of doctors who are not uniformly pro-vax: (1) Those who recommend vaccination but will support parents' decision to vaccinate selectively or on a delayed schedule (2) Those who counsel parents to not vaccinate / selectively vaccinate / delay vaccination.

I think the first group of doctors is going to shrink due to the measles outbreak. Why? Because no doctor in that group would want babies being exposed to diseases like the measles; also because those doctors have got to be rethinking what their tolerance toward these parents has wrought for the community at large.

Regarding the second group of doctors: what makes you think they are brave? I've had some interaction with doctors of this sort: anti-vax, pro "natural remedies", opposed to antibiotics, etc. Here's what I've noticed they all had in common:

1.They don't accept insurance.

2. Their fees are exorbitant.

3. They recommend all sorts of expensive "natural" supplements (e.g., regular iron isn't good enough; and you'll never get your kids to eat spinach or broccoli; it's got to be Floradix!) and referrals to crazily expensive specialists, like doctors who do cranio-sacral manipulations or chiropractors or acupuncturists, who also don't accept insurance.

4. When you ask them for evidence that these specialists will help your child's condition, they try to distract you, and tell you anecdotal evidence, but they never provide solid evidence published in a reputable journal.

Been there, done that. Because I'm naturally skeptical, my encounters with such providers have been limited. But it's clear that their motivation is at least partly financial. They're not brave and they're not saints.


Every doctor (and every professional) is in business at least partly for financial gain.
3 out of 4 of your points state that they’re expensive. Charging a lot of money doesn’t get you many customers. It actually deters people from coming. There is something to be said for a service people are willing to pay big bucks for. The people going really believe and care about what they are doing and have seen for themselves that it works (otherwise, why would they voluntarily keep paying big money to go back? Wouldn’t they realize they’re wasting their money on something false and useless and eventually give it up?)
If you don’t think vaccines are harmful, it’s no big deal to go into your doctors office and get them for free. It doesn’t say much about you or the doctor. I guarantee you if insurance didn’t cover those vaccines , many who say they are adamantly pro vax would be out there lobbying that over half of today’s vaccines are unnecessary.
Back to top

southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 10:25 am
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
Every doctor (and every professional) is in business at least partly for financial gain.
3 out of 4 of your points state that they’re expensive. Charging a lot of money doesn’t get you many customers. It actually deters people from coming. There is something to be said for a service people are willing to pay big bucks for. The people going really believe and care about what they are doing and have seen for themselves that it works (otherwise, why would they voluntarily keep paying big money to go back? Wouldn’t they realize they’re wasting their money on something false and useless and eventually give it up?)
If you don’t think vaccines are harmful, it’s no big deal to go into your doctors office and get them for free. It doesn’t say much about you or the doctor. I guarantee you if insurance didn’t cover those vaccines , many who say they are adamantly pro vax would be out there lobbying that over half of today’s vaccines are unnecessary.


I have seen people hop from one alternative treatment to the next, only to find that they either work short term or not at all. I have seen these fads come and go, and cost plenty of money in the process but not making anyone healthier.

I do agree that if insurance wouldn't cover vaccines, fewer people would be vaccinated but not because they don't want them. There are people dying because they can't afford insulin but not because they don't want it.
Back to top

yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 12:42 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I have seen people hop from one alternative treatment to the next, only to find that they either work short term or not at all. I have seen these fads come and go, and cost plenty of money in the process but not making anyone healthier.

I do agree that if insurance wouldn't cover vaccines, fewer people would be vaccinated but not because they don't want them. There are people dying because they can't afford insulin but not because they don't want it.

Actually some (or all?) vaccines are free of charge. The government covers it's cost as a motivation for everyone to get vaccinated. That is what I heard from our family practitioner. It's because of all the conspiracy theories about vaccines being a money making business.

Also, don't they volunteer in 3rd world countries and immunize kids there? Or is that also a money making business? Lol.
Back to top

amother




Blonde


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 12:58 pm
yksraya wrote:
Actually some (or all?) vaccines are free of charge. The government covers it's cost as a motivation for everyone to get vaccinated. That is what I heard from our family practitioner. It's because of all the conspiracy theories about vaccines being a money making business.

Also, don't they volunteer in 3rd world countries and immunize kids there? Or is that also a money making business? Lol.


The ones you get at the doctor are covered by insurance. It’s a good thing they’re “free” because I bet some pro Vaxers wouldn’t pay a dime for many of them.
Back to top

amother




Yellow


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:02 pm
southernbubby wrote:
No, I am not for real. The anti-vaxers claim that the effect of the vaccines on the immune system will ensure that the child will always be sick and that doctors know that and vaccinate so that the kids will have an endless need for medical treatment.


Lol what.

Measles ERASES THE IMMUNE SYSTEM.
Back to top

amother




Smokey


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:12 pm
gamzehyaavor wrote:
Absolutely.
Shall I go back and edit?
Here's a trivia question to antivaxer moms.
Not your child, because yours will be'H go through measles with flying colors.
But, hypothetically. is it better to have a endotracheal tube down your throat with potential to harm your vocal cords and being on life support with all the risks it entails to the lungs, risk vision and hearing impairment as opposed to the smaller risk the vaccine entails?

I wouldn't ask you this last August- but now- if you live in Brooklyn, Rockland county or any other affected area- would you still not reconsider??


No, because the measles vaccine wears off after 3-5 years. (The other vaccines vary when they wear off) Why are so many who were vaccinated getting the measles? How come the first person who got the measles was vaccinated? Its a lot easier getting over the measles as a kid than as an adult. I'd rather my kid get the measles as a kid and be immune for life than getting vaccinated and not be immune anymore after several years and have a more difficult time if and when getting the measles when older. And if your argument is that an immune suppressed child/adult can get the measles and be hospitalized, those same kids can be hospitalized for strep!
Back to top

yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:17 pm
amother [ Blonde ] wrote:
The ones you get at the doctor are covered by insurance. It’s a good thing they’re “free” because I bet some pro Vaxers wouldn’t pay a dime for many of them.

What I meant is free, even for those without insurance.

And about paying a dime, health insurance is not exactly free unless you have medicate. The rest pay for insurance, and pay co pay at each visit. So I don't get your reasoning.
Back to top

yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:25 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
No, because the measles vaccine wears off after 3-5 years. (The other vaccines vary when they wear off) Why are so many who were vaccinated getting the measles? How come the first person who got the measles was vaccinated? Its a lot easier getting over the measles as a kid than as an adult. I'd rather my kid get the measles as a kid and be immune for life than getting vaccinated and not be immune anymore after several years and have a more difficult time if and when getting the measles when older. And if your argument is that an immune suppressed child/adult can get the measles and be hospitalized, those same kids can be hospitalized for strep!

Not after 3-5 yrs, get your facts straight.

The bachur who brought it here from uman where he got it from an unvaxed isreali, was a teenager or maybe in his 20's and did not take a booster. If he was vaxed as a toddler he was long due for another shot. After that it mainly spread by older teens and adults who were no longer immune, and babies pre shot, immune compromised people, and non vaxed kids. The rest where bh spared. Which shows that it doesn't ware off as quickly.

In my kids school, only the non vaxed kids got it. The school refused to let them come back till they are completely well again. It did not spread much bh.
Back to top

amother




Smokey


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:29 pm
yksraya wrote:
Not after 3-5 yrs, get your facts straight.

The bachur who brought it here from uman where he got it from an unvaxed isreali, was a teenager or maybe in his 20's and did not take a booster. If he was vaxed as a toddler he was long due for another shot. After that it mainly spread by older teens and adults who were no longer immune, and babies pre shot, immune compromised people, and non vaxed kids. The rest where bh spared. Which shows that it doesn't ware off as quickly.

In my kids school, only the non vaxed kids got it. The school refused to let them come back till they are completely well again. It did not spread much bh.


Several of my brothers friends got it. They were all vaxxed. That stewardess who was hospitalized from measles was vaxxed. Im not going to list them all but many who were vaccinated got the measles now.
Back to top

amother




Aubergine


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:32 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Several of my brothers friends got it. They were all vaxxed. That stewardess who was hospitalized from measles was vaxxed. Im not going to list them all but many who were vaccinated got the measles now.


Vaxxed long ago and it wore off or vaxxed recently and it didn't work?
Back to top

Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:43 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
No, because the measles vaccine wears off after 3-5 years. (The other vaccines vary when they wear off) Why are so many who were vaccinated getting the measles? How come the first person who got the measles was vaccinated? Its a lot easier getting over the measles as a kid than as an adult. I'd rather my kid get the measles as a kid and be immune for life than getting vaccinated and not be immune anymore after several years and have a more difficult time if and when getting the measles when older. And if your argument is that an immune suppressed child/adult can get the measles and be hospitalized, those same kids can be hospitalized for strep!


lol my 30 something yr old sister got 2 doses as a kid, had her titers checked and was immune.

The vast majority of those who contracted measles were NOT vaccinated (90ish percent, even without many anti vaxers reporting). seems like the mmr works
Back to top

yksraya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:45 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Several of my brothers friends got it. They were all vaxxed. That stewardess who was hospitalized from measles was vaxxed. Im not going to list them all but many who were vaccinated got the measles now.

They were vaxed, but not 3-5 yrs ago. More like 15+ yrs ago...
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:48 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
No, because the measles vaccine wears off after 3-5 years. (The other vaccines vary when they wear off) Why are so many who were vaccinated getting the measles? How come the first person who got the measles was vaccinated? Its a lot easier getting over the measles as a kid than as an adult. I'd rather my kid get the measles as a kid and be immune for life than getting vaccinated and not be immune anymore after several years and have a more difficult time if and when getting the measles when older. And if your argument is that an immune suppressed child/adult can get the measles and be hospitalized, those same kids can be hospitalized for strep!


Where are you getting the first bolded statement? The measles vaccine certainly doesn't wear off after 3-5 years. You may be confused by the fact that two MMR shots are part of the vaccine schedule, one given at between 12 and 15 months, and one given at between 4 and 6 years. That is *not* because the measles vaccine wears off. It is because some kids need two MMRs to build immunity. Between 90 and 93% of people are immune after one shot, but 97% are immune after two shots, and having 97% of the vaccinated population immune gives a much greater chance of community immunity.

I believe several principles lie behind the vaccination schedule for MMR and other vaccines:

(1) Vaccinate children as soon as it makes sense, so that there is not an increased risk of the children getting the disease. My understanding is that children don't build long-lasting immunity to measles, mumps, and rubella before about one year, so except for cases of ongoing outbreak, it doesn't make sense to vaccinate them before one year.

(2) Coordinate vaccinations with well visits. Once children are past infancy, they often don't go for frequent well visits. So the recommendation is for vaccination at the same time as the well visits that children need to have before starting preschool or first grade.

There is nothing magical about the MMR vaccination schedule, which is why many doctors, previous to these outbreaks, have been okay with some delay. The problem is that delay often leads to fewer shots being administered than recommended.

But this has nothing to do with the MMR "wearing off" after 3-5 years. That's just wrong, and is yet more evidence of how ignorant anti-vaxxers are.

Regarding the second bolded statement: I don't know what you mean by the "first person to get the measles"; that occurred over a thousand years ago. I think you mean the first case in the Orthodox community in the NYC area in fall 2018? There are many explanations for why a vaccinated person may have gotten measles. One is that he have only received one shot; another is that he was one of the 3% who don't build immunity. Or the records may be wrong or his memory may be wrong, and he really wasn't vaxxed. Whatever the story of the "first case," the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people to come down with the measles during this outbreak have been unvaccinated children.

Regarding the third bolded statement: Strep is certainly serious. One major difference is that unlike measles, strep can be treated quickly and effectively with antibiotics. Without treatment, strep can lead to devastating consequences, including heart and kidney damage. In my experience, unfortunately, people who don't vax are also often those who try getting away without using antibiotics to treat strep, relying on Vitamin C or manuka honey instead. Double shame on them.
Back to top

nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:54 pm
Two doses of the measles vaccine provides life long immunity for about 97% of people (similar to the percentage of people who will have lifelong immunity from the disease itself). Also, realize that 90% of non immune individuals exposed to the virus will get it thousands of people have been exposed in NY this year and the vast majority of those who came down with measles were unvaccinated or undervaccinated. So if 1,000 people were exposed, 900 of whom were vaccinated with 2 doses of the MMR and 100 who were unvaccinated it is presumed that 90 of the 100 unvaccinated individuals will become sick and 24 of the 900 vaccinated individuals (90% of the 3% who are not immune). The stewardess could have fallen into this category. Think about the thousands of people exposed on the UCLA campus or at Disneyland but since BH the vast majority are immune from vaccinations etc. There were not 1,000s of cases.

Also, if additional vaccinations were needed, the CDC would recommend them and people would take them just like they recommend a shingles vaccine for older adults.

Again, vaccinating is your choice and that is a right you have, but saying MMR only provides 3 to 5 years of protection is inaccurate and false.
Back to top

southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 1:55 pm
Sebastian wrote:
lol my 30 something yr old sister got 2 doses as a kid, had her titers checked and was immune.

The vast majority of those who contracted measles were NOT vaccinated (90ish percent, even without many anti vaxers reporting). seems like the mmr works


My second son, who was born in 81 and maybe only had one shot, had his titer checked and is immune. I think that if the shot would have worn off in only 3 to 5 years, there would be many more cases
Back to top

nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:30 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Regarding the second bolded statement: I don't know what you mean by the "first person to get the measles"; that occurred over a thousand years ago. I think you mean the first case in the Orthodox community in the NYC area in fall 2018? There are many explanations for why a vaccinated person may have gotten measles. One is that he have only received one shot; another is that he was one of the 3% who don't build immunity. Or the records may be wrong or his memory may be wrong, and he really wasn't vaxxed. Whatever the story of the "first case," the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people to come down with the measles during this outbreak have been unvaccinated children.


I had actually been told (by someone who knows the first woman to have become infected in Monsey/New Square back in October) that the woman believes she had had the actual measles as a child.
Back to top

JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 2:48 pm
nchr wrote:
I had actually been told (by someone who knows the first woman to have become infected in Monsey/New Square back in October) that the woman believes she had had the actual measles as a child.


And the person who infected twenty people in Detroit also believed he had had the measles as a child. Perhaps, as I've mused before on these threads, and as you seemed to be suggesting in a recent post, having the measles does not *always* confer lifelong immunity. Or their memories could be mistaken, and they could have had German measles rather than measles. Or the adults around them thought they had measles when really they had German measles and therefore they were never vaccinated.
Back to top

southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, May 15 2019, 4:12 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
And the person who infected twenty people in Detroit also believed he had had the measles as a child. Perhaps, as I've mused before on these threads, and as you seemed to be suggesting in a recent post, having the measles does not *always* confer lifelong immunity. Or their memories could be mistaken, and they could have had German measles rather than measles. Or the adults around them thought they had measles when really they had German measles and therefore they were never vaccinated.


As was pointed out in another thread, roseola could be mistaken for measles.
Back to top
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 3 of 4 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations

Related Topics Replies Last Post
What temperature is cold enough to start wearing fur coats?
by amother
20 Fri, Oct 18 2019, 2:17 pm View last post
Measles Complications from this recent outbreak.
by amother
39 Fri, Oct 11 2019, 8:36 am View last post
ENough is enough
by amother
2 Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:52 pm View last post
Who started wearing black tights already?
by amother
28 Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:51 am View last post
New clothes for YT when they already have? WWYD?
by seeker
6 Wed, Sep 25 2019, 11:57 am View last post

Jump to: