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Now she's immune, but will her baby survive?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 9:37 am
youngishbear wrote:
About measles being "good for the immune system," according to what I've read, it actually wipes it out, sort of resets it. It stands to reason that someone who has allergies, eczema, or other immune issues will see changes after measles, and possibly even positive changes.

That still doesn't mitigate the danger of measles complications and the lowered immune system following recovery.

It's an unwise gamble.


The bolded is a hypothesis that could be evaluated. Have there been any efforts to test this hypothesis?

The natural crunchy set that I knew back in Manhattan had kids who were no smarter, less allergic, or less eczemic (if this is a word) than the others.
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 9:40 am
youngishbear wrote:
Here's a link to learn pendant spinning. I hope that's a good enough translation of keitel-dreiing.

ttps://imaginalhealth.com/nutrition/self-testing-using-a-pendulum/

I didn't understand the relevance of the Yiddish phrase until the above, but I still prefer Foucault's pendulum
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amother




Turquoise


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 9:49 am
youngishbear wrote:
About measles being "good for the immune system," according to what I've read, it actually wipes it out, sort of resets it. It stands to reason that someone who has allergies, eczema, or other immune issues will see changes after measles, and possibly even positive changes.

That still doesn't mitigate the danger of measles complications and the lowered immune system following recovery.

It's an unwise gamble.


ITA - My two questions are as follows:

1 - If a child is unable to withstand a minimal dose, or the dead virus itself, what will happen to his system if he gets the full blown version?

2 - The answer to that usually leads to the claim is that it's the other additives to the dose that causes the issues. But all the additives (with mercury being removed now) are ingredients that are found in other foods/drugs, and are all well within the safety limits, how is that possible? For example, the aluminum salts. Aluminum is 1 of the most abundant elements in the earth’s crust and is present in air, food, and water, all infants are exposed to aluminum in the environment. It's even found in breast milk and infant formula. Aluminum is also quickly removed from the body. Why will the aluminum in the vaccine hurt the child, and not the infant formula (they're basically the same concentration)?
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 9:54 am
southernbubby wrote:
The real problem is magical thinking. An anti-vax person that I know embraced one MLM alternative medicine product after another and tried to convince a cancer patient to use blue-green algae instead of chemo but luckily the person with cancer chose the chemo and survived.
This way of thinking is both dangerous and costly but these people are united to save the world against big pharma so they are part of an army with leadership and instant acceptance. It attracts a certain type, kind of like militias and political extremist groups do and I have noticed that some like to gamble. They will blow money that they don't have at auctions and casinos because magical thinkers do that.


I think the antivax movement appeals to several different types, and this is a good description of some.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 9:57 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The bolded is a hypothesis that could be evaluated. Have there been any efforts to test this hypothesis?

The natural crunchy set that I knew back in Manhattan had kids who were no smarter, less allergic, or less eczemic (if this is a word) than the others.


That was before the measles outbreak. We should get them to follow up with the kids who had documented immune issues before contracting measles and see if those problems disappeared afterwards.

Hashem knows there were enough cases in our community to support a valid retroactive study.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:01 am
amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:
ITA - My two questions are as follows:

1 - If a child is unable to withstand a minimal dose, or the dead virus itself, what will happen to his system if he gets the full blown version?

2 - The answer to that usually leads to the claim is that it's the other additives to the dose that causes the issues. But all the additives (with mercury being removed now) are ingredients that are found in other foods/drugs, and are all well within the safety limits, how is that possible? For example, the aluminum salts. Aluminum is 1 of the most abundant elements in the earth’s crust and is present in air, food, and water, all infants are exposed to aluminum in the environment. It's even found in breast milk and infant formula. Aluminum is also quickly removed from the body. Why will the aluminum in the vaccine hurt the child, and not the infant formula (they're basically the same concentration)?


Exactly. They claim that the vaccine goes directly into the bloodstream, which makes the toxins more potent, but that isn't true.
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keym




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:02 am
amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:
ITA - My two questions are as follows:

1 - If a child is unable to withstand a minimal dose, or the dead virus itself, what will happen to his system if he gets the full blown version?

2 - The answer to that usually leads to the claim is that it's the other additives to the dose that causes the issues. But all the additives (with mercury being removed now) are ingredients that are found in other foods/drugs, and are all well within the safety limits, how is that possible? For example, the aluminum salts. Aluminum is 1 of the most abundant elements in the earth’s crust and is present in air, food, and water, all infants are exposed to aluminum in the environment. It's even found in breast milk and infant formula. Aluminum is also quickly removed from the body. Why will the aluminum in the vaccine hurt the child, and not the infant formula (they're basically the same concentration)?


Exactly! !
So then the next question typically asked to anti-vaxxers is this: are you so careful in every other area? Soaps, cleaners, aerosol sprays, aluminum pans, plastics etc to avoid additives.

The typical response usually is "we try the best we can but one doesn't balance the other. I have my right not to vax and still use aluminum pans".

That's where I wonder why. Why do they have a right to get their kids sick, other kids sick, cause an outbreak, and yet don't have to prove 100% consistency in all aspects.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:03 am
imasoftov wrote:
I didn't understand the relevance of the Yiddish phrase until the above, but I still prefer Foucault's pendulum


Cool!

Of what practical alternative medical use is Foucault's pendulum, though? You think it can help test the health of the Earth?
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:25 am
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
That is the precise reason I am. anti vax and not just pro choice. She should have gotten measles at five years old but because measles wasn't circulating she couldn't get it then


However, thousands of individuals who would have had the measles at 5 years old would have become blind, deaf, suffered brain damage or died ch'v if public health policy did not include the MMR. There would be hundreds of thousands of measles cases annually. Such results are not acceptable when there is an effective vaccine that provides lifelong immunity to measles for over 97% of individuals who receive two doses. It only provides about 80-85% of individuals who receive two doses with lifelong immunith to the mumps though. In addition, the MMR vaccine is credited with being one of the most important vaccines because after a measles infection, the immune system can be weakened for up to 3 years, which resulted in childhood suffering from other conditions so by preventing the measles the MMR prevents severe suffering from other illnesses as well.

That is why pro choice for an individual is one thing, even if I believe vaccines are important, but anti vaccine public policy is outrageous and unacceptable.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:45 am
amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:
ITA - My two questions are as follows:

1 - If a child is unable to withstand a minimal dose, or the dead virus itself, what will happen to his system if he gets the full blown version?

2 - The answer to that usually leads to the claim is that it's the other additives to the dose that causes the issues. But all the additives (with mercury being removed now) are ingredients that are found in other foods/drugs, and are all well within the safety limits, how is that possible? For example, the aluminum salts. Aluminum is 1 of the most abundant elements in the earth’s crust and is present in air, food, and water, all infants are exposed to aluminum in the environment. It's even found in breast milk and infant formula. Aluminum is also quickly removed from the body. Why will the aluminum in the vaccine hurt the child, and not the infant formula (they're basically the same concentration)?


There are a lot of people that won’t use formula that have trace forms of aluminum in it or any formula for that matter. Don’t assume that everybody is fine with eating processed food, taking drugs, and using products without first checking that they are safe enough. Many people are selective with what they choose to use and with good reason. There are products on the market that are sh-t and it pays to be selective. There are medications that were approved and sold that ended up causing harm and having major law suits because their side effects were worse than what they were taken to prevent. There are products that were allowed to be sold on the market that were later recalled or proven to be harmful because people were harmed by them and later sued. The information is available for anybody interested to find it.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:48 am
youngishbear wrote:
I think the antivax movement appeals to several different types, and this is a good description of some.


True, I am stereotyping. Here in Monsey there are health food stores that deliver as well as large supplement departments in several frum stores. Many supplement brands are frum owned and several national brands are kosher so I assume that alternative medicine is big business here and some people rely on it totally to the exclusion of most conventional medicine.
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too tired




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:51 am
Suposedly Reb Ahron Teitelbaum said during a 2 sided debate at his side that all anti vaxers should have their own parks schools shuls mikvas (I wish ladies mikvas as well) does anyone have this documented- proven that he said besides for whatasap groups?

And here we are.
We exchanged the benefit of "measles makes you storng against cancer hoax" and "old autism hoax" for a confirmed 2 LB 25 week old baby (hopefully we can still call baby), and a 10 year old brain damaged and a stewardess in coma. I'd rather take the the risks of shots.

Weather mom send out her infected child because she cannot handle baby sit or she needs something from grocery or she wants to do a community favor and spread it. She will give big din vechesbon for it! Maybe she has blood spots in her hands too?


Last edited by too tired on Thu, May 16 2019, 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:57 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
There are a lot of people that won’t use formula that have trace forms of aluminum in it or any formula for that matter. Don’t assume that everybody is fine with eating processed food, taking drugs, and using products without first checking that they are safe enough. Many people are selective with what they choose to use and with good reason. There are products on the market that are sh-t and it pays to be selective. There are medications that were approved and sold that ended up causing harm and having major law suits because their side effects were worse than what they were taken to prevent. There are products that were allowed to be sold on the market that were later recalled or proven to be harmful because people were harmed by them and later sued. The information is available for anybody interested to find it.


I agree with these statements as long as you are not saying that products marketed as natural are automatically safer or more effective.
Yes I agree that some products were on the market for years before anyone knew how dangerous they were. Even vaccines have undergone revision and bad batches discontinued.
At the moment however, there is an outbreak and I don't think that anyone has the option to ignore it. Even vaccinated people must be vigilant for symptoms.
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too tired




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 10:59 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
There are a lot of people that won’t use formula that have trace forms of aluminum in it or any formula for that matter. Don’t assume that everybody is fine with eating processed food, taking drugs, and using products without first checking that they are safe enough. Many people are selective with what they choose to use and with good reason. There are products on the market that are sh-t and it pays to be selective. There are medications that were approved and sold that ended up causing harm and having major law suits because their side effects were worse than what they were taken to prevent. There are products that were allowed to be sold on the market that were later recalled or proven to be harmful because people were harmed by them and later sued. The information is available for anybody interested to find it.


What does that have to do with keeping your child home for 21 days and avoid spilling blood in my community? eat what you want treat illnessed the way you wont and if you skip shots be gebentch, BUT DONT INFECT MY SHUL AND GROCERY AND BUS. And people doing shiduch with anti vaxer have must be told that they are antivaxers. The other side should agree to have such a dificult anti vax life


Last edited by too tired on Thu, May 16 2019, 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Brunette


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 11:00 am
southernbubby wrote:
True, I am stereotyping. Here in Monsey there are health food stores that deliver as well as large supplement departments in several frum stores. Many supplement brands are frum owned and several national brands are kosher so I assume that alternative medicine is big business here and some people rely on it totally to the exclusion of most conventional medicine.


What’s it anyone’s business if someone chooses to buy a vitamin? We’re all adults who are capable of participating in the free market and spending our hard earned money as we see fit. Not one person is being pressured or forced by any authority to buy a vitamin or to visit a chiropractor. Someone is selling something and making some money? How is that relevant to anything? You don’t like vitamins, don’t use them. It’s a free market. Like I said before, there’s all kinds of garbage being sold on the market, and people making money off of it.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 11:05 am
too tired wrote:
What does that have to do with keeping your child home for 21 days and avoid spilling blood in my community? eat what you want treat illnessed the way you wont and if you skip shots be gebentch, BUT DONT INFECT MY SHUL AND GROCERY AND BUS. And people doing shiduch with anti vaxer have must be told that they are antivaxers. The other side should agree to have such a dificult anti vax life


Exactly. It has nothing to do with it. That’s why I don’t comprehend the question that’s constantly being brought up about using chemical free products vs vaccinating.
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 11:06 am
southernbubby wrote:
I agree with these statements as long as you are not saying that products marketed as natural are automatically safer or more effective.
Yes I agree that some products were on the market for years before anyone knew how dangerous they were. Even vaccines have undergone revision and bad batches discontinued.
At the moment however, there is an outbreak and I don't think that anyone has the option to ignore it. Even vaccinated people must be vigilant for symptoms.


I think this is a matter of choosing whom to trust. If they think the tracking of adverse vaccine reactions is inadequate, I wonder how deeply they looked into the verification of the safety of alternative medicine.

Again, stereotyping that it's the same group of people, but there is certainly at least some overlap.

I always wonder about natural remedies in general. If they believe it's potent enough to bring positive effects, they must admit that its very potency can be dangerous for some people sometimes.
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too tired




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 11:07 am
Some say the baby didnt make it. Is it true? Sad Crying Confused
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amother




Scarlet


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 11:12 am
My two cents for what it's worth;

I'm pro-choice. Till it comes to an outbreak.

I agree that if everyone would get the measles as little kids, we would be better off with lifelong immunity. I also understand that we live in 2019 and everyone doesn't get the measles as kids - so vaccines isn't really a choice anymore.
I'm from an "anti-vaxx" family, however, my siblings and myself were all immunized with the MMR as teenagers. Because, since we bH didn't get sick with the measles or rubella (we did all have mumps though, when it was going around about 9 years ago) we don't want to risk catching it as adults... so the risks of the vaccines are lower than the risks of getting sick with these diseases as an adult.
Now, because of the outbreak, I vaccinated my children against MMR.
I'm from the group of people who say that the chance of getting measles is extremely low, so why put "poison" directly into my kids bodies if it's not necessary. That puts the chance of effects from the vaccine at higher than the chance of complications from measles (which is zero if there is no outbreak)
Measles is extremely contagious, and unfortunately there is an outbreak, so we have to live in the times we live in, and reevaluate. Now, the chance of complications from measles is higher than that of complications from the vaccine, so I vaccinated my kids.

I hope the above is understandable for most of you, even if you don't agree. I tried to explain as well as I could... and hope nobody attacks me. Respectful questions are okay, though I can't promise to know all the answers. I'm not an "anti-vaxxer" in the sense that I read all the "research". I just go with what my limited sechel tells me is the right thing to do. And at this point, it told me to vaxx my kids against measles. (I was, obviously, planning to vaxx them all against measles prior to puberty, even without an outbreak)
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youngishbear




 
 
 


Post  Thu, May 16 2019, 11:16 am
amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:
My two cents for what it's worth;

I'm pro-choice. Till it comes to an outbreak.

I agree that if everyone would get the measles as little kids, we would be better off with lifelong immunity. I also understand that we live in 2019 and everyone doesn't get the measles as kids - so vaccines isn't really a choice anymore.
I'm from an "anti-vaxx" family, however, my siblings and myself were all immunized with the MMR as teenagers. Because, since we bH didn't get sick with the measles or rubella (we did all have mumps though, when it was going around about 9 years ago) we don't want to risk catching it as adults... so the risks of the vaccines are lower than the risks of getting sick with these diseases as an adult.
Now, because of the outbreak, I vaccinated my children against MMR.
I'm from the group of people who say that the chance of getting measles is extremely low, so why put "poison" directly into my kids bodies if it's not necessary. That puts the chance of effects from the vaccine at higher than the chance of complications from measles (which is zero if there is no outbreak)
Measles is extremely contagious, and unfortunately there is an outbreak, so we have to live in the times we live in, and reevaluate. Now, the chance of complications from measles is higher than that of complications from the vaccine, so I vaccinated my kids.

I hope the above is understandable for most of you, even if you don't agree. I tried to explain as well as I could... and hope nobody attacks me. Respectful questions are okay, though I can't promise to know all the answers. I'm not an "anti-vaxxer" in the sense that I read all the "research". I just go with what my limited sechel tells me is the right thing to do. And at this point, it told me to vaxx my kids against measles. (I was, obviously, planning to vaxx them all against measles prior to puberty, even without an outbreak)


So you're perfectly happy allowing others to take "risks" on your behalf but refusing to contribute to protecting us all. You do understand that this attitude is what leads to oubreaks in the first place.

If you're going to vaccinate in the end, may as well join the effort to eradicate measles altogether.
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