Is excluding the non vaccinated from school really working?

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:12 pm

yksraya wrote:

Fine, you are talking about other people. But when I respond to your post, you are not the only one reading this thread. The ones it does apply to, will read it and will read it as I am speaking to them as a you. Now is that something you comprehend? Thank you!

So please make that clear in your first post. Generally speaking when someone quotes a post, it is indicative of replying to the quoted poster.

I was speaking about "them." There's no reason you can't continue speaking about "them."

Your need to make it about me and you, as opposed to you understanding someone else's thought process (which we both disagree with whole-heartedly) is part of why these conversations often go sour.

keym

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:15 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

And we can argue until the cows come home if this mother is right or not. Many of us, even staunch provaxxers don't care.
As long as the parent maintains 1000% quarantine from the moment she exposes her kids until the virus is over. No groceries. No shul. No playground. No playing out in the hall, or letting the kids or adults who are not immune leave the front door. No Dr's visits. No pharmacy. No ER. Nothing.
If she does the above, then I might think she's wrong, but her family, her choice.
If she doesn't do everything. Let's her kids play in the hallway for 20 minutes because they're driving her crazy. Sends a kid to borrow milk from the neighbor because she ran out. Then she is wrong and blood is on her hands. It's no longer just her rights, buy she violated the rights of others to not be exposed.

yksraya

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:15 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

But see, the mother doesn't see her child catching the disease as being a danger. That's how pro-vaxxers see it and immuno-compromised people see it. The mother merely sees it as inconvenient for her child to be a bit sick, but the long-term benefits for HER CHILD are worthwhile.

Of course it has to do with the DOH. Without the DOH's exclusionary order, the mothers of these children wouldn't have felt pushed to the wall to obtain immunity.

And maybe, just maybe that mother is "pushed to the wall" to give the shot?

If that mother is that dummy, maybe we should all educate her instead of "trying to understand"? Or maybe she should get help. Slow people get outside help or get their kids taken away to foster care. If they nebech don't know how to properly take care of their kids and willingly expose them to get sick, intervention is needed.

youngishbear

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:15 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

The psychology of this fascinates me. What fears are strong enough to override a mother's natural fear of disease, and especially one with such clearly documented dangers? Even an autistic child isn't brain dead.

I must say that once I grasped the bolded, I realized that pro-diseasers must not be as evil as I thought because they genuinely don't believe they're putting others in harm's way.

Every villain thinks himself the hero of his own story, anyway.

Last edited by youngishbear on Fri, May 17 2019, 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:18 pm

yksraya wrote:

1. What do you mean by MMR is not an option? Is it a Medical exemption?

2. Not all anti vaxers purposely expose their kids to the measles so that they can go back to school. Some are just brainwashed to be anti vax, but they don't want to make their kids sick. They are just irresponsible and the kid can get sick if not kept home and away from exposure.

For some anti-vaxxers, giving any vaccine at all is not an option. For whatever reason that may be. It's totally and completely off the table.

I agree with you about point number 2. I know many like that too. Are the people that you know, their kids out of school or rejected from camp?

Those that I know who are in this category needed to make a decision because of camp. I know someone who kept her kids home from school for 6 weeks (!) she felt like keeping her home from camp was cruel. So after finally being allowed back into school (once 95% was reached), intentionally exposed her in order to be able to go to camp. Do you see how, even though we might not like the implications of it, for people whom vaxxing is non-negotiable, they were "forced" to expose their child to measles?

amother

Violet

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:18 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

So to go along with this theory - what would happen to this child if she didn't get immunity? She'd grow up, and start adult life without having immunity. And then what would happen to this very child - if such an outbreak occurs when she's 25, and oh she happens to be pregnant too? Or if an outbreak occurs when she's 55, and its longer a 'simple' disease? Is it truly the best way to raise your kids without being immune to it?

So in essence, shouldn't they be thanking DOH for this opportunity?

yksraya

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:21 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Are you that sensitive that you take everything as a personal attack? If so, quit debating. You can choose to nitpick every single word I say like a simple "you". Everyone knows that in a discussion "you" does not always mean the "you specifically". I don't see a need to go out of my way to explain the obvious, just because maybe the one who argues with me can maybe not take the flak when she gets disagreed with.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:22 pm

keym wrote:

I can only tell you of the people I know. Most did keep their kids home. But no, not all, and I was horrified. I think it's part of the narrative they need to tell themselves to justify intentional exposure: The measles isn't bad, it's not scary, it's not dangerous. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to bear the burden of their actions.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:23 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Did you forget to bold in the post where you quoted me?

keym

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:26 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

So I'll say this.
Anyone who did not quarantine, deserves a lot more than horror.
The "hate" that they feel is complete flabbergasted that they could be that selfish. And yes, they deserve the names they've been called- rodef, murderer, selfish. Etc.
I just cant.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:26 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Unfortunately we are seeing the results now of those with such a thought process. They just don't think about it, hope it won't happen, and daven.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:29 pm

yksraya wrote:

Yes. I am.

I have enough of everyone who can maybe understand some of anti-vaxxers' actions being put into a box together with all of them regardless of if they agree with them or not, quarantine or not, intentionally expose or not, vaccinate but have doubts... If someone doesn't 100% toe the party line, they get dissed, bashed, and mocked.

amother

Violet

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:38 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Because bottom line, there's the same troubling underlying problem that all of them share - putting others in danger. So their reasoning for it doesn't matter.

And calling this 'hate' is just to gear up people's emotions. No one is hating them, everyone is outraged at them.

Outrage and hate are two different things. I can love someone, but still possess outrage at their behavior.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:39 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

How is your post a response to mine?

yksraya

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:40 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

I have a Sil, she is a very calm person, a caring person. She became extremely crunchy and anti vax throughout the yrs because she has kids with severe allergies.
She is also extremely ultra frum. So while she is a writer and she is smart and knows a lot, especially in halacha etc or anything she ever read, she is also gullible when it comes to modern knowledge like science, technology etc.

So over the years, the anti vaxers managed to brainwash her.

One of her kids caught the measles. She kept him home. The DOH is aware of it, so all kids have to stay home from school. The older few where vaxed, they are in school. The one who was sick, is bh healthy now and back to school as he is immune. The rest of kids she is keeping home, and entertaining them.

When her bachurim were still home for bein hazmanim, they learned with the younger set. I'm sure she found other plans now for someone to learn with her boys. If her kids will not get accepted to camp, she will find other plans for the summer. It's not easy, but she complies with a smile. She too wants this epidemic to end.

youngishbear

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:40 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Did you forget to bold in the post where you quoted me?

Yes, thank you. I fixed it in my post, but for clarification, I meant the fact that they truly don't see measles as dangerous, and therefore, they believe they're not endangering others.

Obviously I disagree not only on the first point, but also on the second.

Last edited by youngishbear on Fri, May 17 2019, 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:43 pm

yksraya wrote:

Her kids are home because they are most likely incubating measles right now. If their sibling just had it, they will get it next.

My question was she, or other people you know whom you were referring to, whose kids were NOT known to be exposed, are their kids home by choice or by DOH order?

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, May 17 2019, 4:46 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Of the anti-vaxxers I know, almost all agree on the first, but the second is really varied. Meaning, mostly they don't see measles as dangerous, and yet, there are many who will quarantine once knowingly exposed because they care for the health of other non-immune people.