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School retreat
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 6:00 am
I have 2 high school age daughters. There is a school weekend retreat every year choosing parent over $200 per student.

If I were to call the school and complain that I can't afford it, they would reduce the cost no questions asked.

I don't want their Tzedakah, and I'm going to pay.

I think it's poor chinuch.

The school had a very large percentage of families that are lower income, mostly klei Koresh. We all struggle to pay as much tuition as we can, and reduce our luxuries in order to do it- besimcha.

I don't send kids to camp every year, we don't take extravagant vacations, and we happily cut costs wherever possible. My children are used to this lifestyle and since so many of their friends live the same way, they don't feel different.

Why is a BY school promoting spending so much money on a three day weekend? Yes, asking the girls to contribute/cover the costs themselves is an option, but frankly, that's not how I want to encourage my girls to spend their money, and that will make them resentful of our economic status, this is presented to the girls as a given, not a luxury.

I know that the Ruchnius gains are many blah blah blah, I can't see it justifying the cost. The message that the girls are given all through high school is that luxuries can inhibit spiritual growth, this is a contradiction.

I am all for school Shabbos, but school retreat..... It bothers me.
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ruchelbuckle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 6:36 am
First off, I am sorry that this put you in a difficult situation.

However, that being said, I don't see why this is "poor chinuch."

School retreats are very common. I work in a girls high school and the retreats-- usually a non-Shabbos overnight at the beginning of the year for everyone to get to know each other plus a shabbaton (either in school or away) do quite a bit for the girls. They are not about "fun." There is actually quite a bit of tachlis and chinuch that goes into them. You said this yourself.

Unfortunately, these type of activities cost money. I don't think a school is "promoting spending so much money on a 3 day weekend."---- I don't think $200-250 is a lot of money for a 3 day weekend, nor is it unreasonable (assuming it's all inclusive). There are a number of expenses you might not have thought of. (If you want to give us some information, we can probably help you come up with some rough costs).

Whether we like it or not, there are certain standards that we need to give our girls. And "good" extra curriculars have become important in schools. A high school 3 day retreat that cost $200 does not sound extravagant to me. Think about it-- they have space rental, food, supplies for activities, etc... All the projects, games, workshops, etc... need equipment. How are the girls getting to the place--- are they all taking the city bus and expecting to arrive on their own? (unlikely Smile) or is the school renting a bus? Are they hiring alumni/madrichot to help run programming? Is there staff attending? Does the staff need to hire extra babysitting while they're away? all those things add up.

Also if a 3 day retreat is costing over in the $2-300 range, I highly doubt it's luxurious. Again, I don't see any issue with poor chinuch here. I see that you're resentful about an extra cost-- which is totally understandable. But let's be honest and call a spade a spade.

I don't see any reason what's wrong with asking the schools for a break or asking your daughters to help chip in. I don't think that's bad chinuch, and I wouldn't be surprised if other parents did something similar.

One of my kid has a 4 day trip coming up. The cost is $350, and most of that is free activities! The bulk of the cost is lodging, food, transportation. And honestly? The programming sounds pretty boring! My kid is only going because of the social aspect-- she earned 1/2 of the money herself to pay for it. (I told my kid we would pay for 1/2 if she EARNED the other 1/2-- she couldn't take it from birthday money or gift money. I don't think that's bad chinuch or it makes her resentful of our totally-normal-not wealthy-regular-middle-class-frum-financial-status)

I also want to point out something else: having worked in a school, it's very hard to please all the parents...
1) One parent is going to complain that it's too much money.
2)Another parent is going to complain that it's too much money, but it's important for their kid, so they will beg, borrow or steal to pay for it.
3) Another parent will say, "Are you kidding, this is so nebby! Her cousin at school X went on a much better retreat! And they got a donor to pay for half of it, so it only cost $125!" blah blah blah

Hatzlacha to you and I hope your daughters get a lot out of the retreat. I have seen that some girls-- even very academic ones-- get more out of a one day trip than they do out of 3 weeks in the classroom, so I hope its a positive experience for them!


Last edited by ruchelbuckle on Fri, May 17 2019, 7:34 am; edited 3 times in total
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 6:40 am
When I was in high school, we had programs throughout the year where girls would be able to do certain "jobs" for the school & the "pay" would be a deduction of the cost of the school shabbaton. I know some schools that still have such a program.
OP, there's nothing wrong with asking your girls to contribute a bit. There's also nothing wrong with asking the school for a break if you really need it.
I don't get why you think this is bad chinuch, a change of scenery & schedule is important for the girls.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 6:44 am
I wish we had this when I was in HS. My daughter comes home on a high from these
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:08 am
Deleted
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:11 am
I went to a BY with a mixed yeshivish/ balabatish student body. It was very normal for some of my friends to use their babysitting/ summer job money to pay for school extracurriculars. I don't think it's bad chinuch, it's a very standard expectation in many families.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:24 am
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
I went to a BY with a mixed yeshivish/ balabatish student body. It was very normal for some of my friends to use their babysitting/ summer job money to pay for school extracurriculars. I don't think it's bad chinuch, it's a very standard expectation in many families.


I view the cost of school Shabbos as an extension of my tuition obligation. If I wouldn't be able to afford it, I would ask the school for a reduction (I don't - I just manage it somehow....but I would if I felt the need.)

I don't agree that girls should pay their own tuition, and I don't think they should pay for school Shabbos out of their own money either. I would sooner negotiate the cost with the school.

My parents had me paying for my own school Shabbos. But my younger sister, who was more of a rebel, let my parents know that she wouldn't go if she had to pay. My parents wanted her to go, so they paid for her.

I feel that it's part of the school curriculum, and I encourage my daughter to go, and I pay. (and it's not easy for me.)
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:32 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I have 2 high school age daughters. There is a school weekend retreat every year choosing parent over $200 per student.

If I were to call the school and complain that I can't afford it, they would reduce the cost no questions asked.

I don't want their Tzedakah, and I'm going to pay.

I think it's poor chinuch.

The school had a very large percentage of families that are lower income, mostly klei Koresh. We all struggle to pay as much tuition as we can, and reduce our luxuries in order to do it- besimcha.

I don't send kids to camp every year, we don't take extravagant vacations, and we happily cut costs wherever possible. My children are used to this lifestyle and since so many of their friends live the same way, they don't feel different.

Why is a BY school promoting spending so much money on a three day weekend? Yes, asking the girls to contribute/cover the costs themselves is an option, but frankly, that's not how I want to encourage my girls to spend their money, and that will make them resentful of our economic status, this is presented to the girls as a given, not a luxury.

I know that the Ruchnius gains are many blah blah blah, I can't see it justifying the cost. The message that the girls are given all through high school is that luxuries can inhibit spiritual growth, this is a contradiction.

I am all for school Shabbos, but school retreat..... It bothers me.


Not knowing you the school or the situation, I'm going to conjecture
Duh... The school makes money on this weekend.
You are mostly cli Kodesh families
That's beautiful ...
BUT BILLS STILL NEED TO BE PAID

Either it comes from high tuitions or a wealthy parent body or fund raisers like the retreat

It isn't rocket science
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ruchelbuckle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:35 am
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
I agree with everything you said 100% but this line. Why are we MO bashing yet again? Do you send to these schools and forced to send on these trips? Do you concretely know all the behind the scenes? Some schools availablity to go on March of the Living does sound like a luxurious vacation to be judged.


Sorry, sorry. Did not mean to bash M.O. schools. It's just that Modern orthodox schools is the only time I've heard of 8th grade trips to Israel. I deleted that sentence.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:36 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Not knowing you the school or the situation, I'm going to conjecture
Duh... The school makes money on this weekend.
You are mostly cli Kodesh families
That's beautiful ...
BUT BILLS STILL NEED TO BE PAID

Either it comes from high tuitions or a wealthy parent body or fund raisers like the retreat

It isn't rocket science


I think our school lost money on our shabbatons (never had a retreat but had a 3-4 day shabbaton every year). We paid about $200 and I imagine the accommodations, food, transportation, trips, speakers etc cost right about that amount if not a little more. It is far from a fundraiser
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ruchelbuckle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:42 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Not knowing you the school or the situation, I'm going to conjecture
Duh... The school makes money on this weekend.
You are mostly cli Kodesh families
That's beautiful ...
BUT BILLS STILL NEED TO BE PAID

Either it comes from high tuitions or a wealthy parent body or fund raisers like the retreat

It isn't rocket science


Disagree. I highly doubt that the retreats are a fundraiser. In fact, at most schools, most events, unless they are designed to be-- are not fundraisers (ie- the auction, dinner, raffle campaign are clearly fundraisers). But production, retreat, chagigah, etc... no way...those are activities for the girls. Can't speak for other schools, but out our school-- production breaks even. chagigah costs, as does retreat.

Also, your use of "duh" isn't particularly nice.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:47 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Not knowing you the school or the situation, I'm going to conjecture
Duh... The school makes money on this weekend.
You are mostly cli Kodesh families
That's beautiful ...
BUT BILLS STILL NEED TO BE PAID

Either it comes from high tuitions or a wealthy parent body or fund raisers like the retreat

It isn't rocket science


I really, really don't think the schools make money off their school shabbos. And there were years when I had to ask for a reduced fee and they were very nice about it. When we were going through a really hard financial time my son's yeshiva called me before they sent out the letters, to let me know I don't have to pay anything if I can't.

This is not a fundraiser, it's a beautiful Shabbos for the kids to enjoy and grow out of the school setting. Transportation costs, lodging costs, food costs, they have to charge or it would be impossible to do it.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:51 am
I understand. I teach at a low-income title 1 high school in NYC. For example, one of my smartest, most motivated, hardest working students is struggling to pay the $250 deposit for college (the rest is covered by scholarships) and would be unable to attend if us teachers didn't chip in to help her. Anyway, our prom costs about $100 to go. It seems weird to me. Many students openly struggle to afford it (sometimes, again, the teachers donate to cover their ticket) and I'm sure many others struggle privately. It bothers me - if we know for a fact they struggle financially then why do we have this event? I feel like there has to be a cheaper place to do a prom, or do some alternative senior end-of-year event.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:52 am
Naturalmom5, there is no way possible that schools make money off the school shabbaton. Just the opposite, they're losing/spending by giving it at cost price. $200 per kid for 3 days of food, accommodations, activities, and transportation costs more than $200 per kid. It's not possible that the school is making money off this.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 7:59 am
I do think there's real value in these retreats, but it would be a lot smarter to fold that $200 into tuition. The way it's done now, you feel the pain. $200 spread out over ten months, at $20 a month, wouldn't feel quite as hard.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 8:06 am
ruchelbuckle wrote:
Sorry. I deleted that sentence.


Thank you. Very much appreciated
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baltomom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 8:10 am
Just putting this out there: In Bais Yaakov of Baltimore HS, the school Shabbos takes place in the school building, the girls cook most of the food in the school kitchen, etc. and it costs $35-40 per student. The girls have a great time and it's much more economical.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 8:12 am
I run the school shabbaton in the school I work at. We charged the girls $195 and that doesn't cover the entire shabbaton, we still need to compensate a lot and that is with using a very cheap camp, and really no extra luxuries, just the bare basics. We are thousands of dollars short. The Shabbaton is so important for the girls, but it costs a tremendous amount of money even if it's not fancy at all. So the price you're paying for your daughter is to just barely not even cover the cost of making the Shabbaton. No bad chinuch in that.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 8:28 am
baltomom wrote:
Just putting this out there: In Bais Yaakov of Baltimore HS, the school Shabbos takes place in the school building, the girls cook most of the food in the school kitchen, etc. and it costs $35-40 per student. The girls have a great time and it's much more economical.


It's a lot more fun when the school's a few miles a way from home, and there's a gorgeous sunset/sunrise you can watch. I don't see it working in my kids' school, which is in the heart of the community and a short walk away.
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chestnut




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 17 2019, 8:32 am
Wait, in addition to a yearly shabbaton, there's also a retreat??
Why? The girls aren't entertained enough once a year for a weekend?
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