Cultural appropriation

yo'ma

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:22 am

Recently Gucci made a turban that looked very Sikh and they took it down because of all the complaints about it. They also made a sweater that they took down because it looked too much like blackface. A couple of years ago H&M made a scarf that looked very much like a tallis.

What are your thoughts about it? Do you see a difference between culture and religious articles used for fashion?

Sorry about no links, but you can google them. Also, this is not for an article, which I would never do obviously if you would read my signature.

FranticFrummie

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:26 am

I'm not highly offended by cultural appropriation, but I do find it extremely tacky, and shows a huge lack of imagination.

I tend to say "let the market decide", unless the item is clearly related to racism of violence. "I Heart

the KKK" t-shirts and Nazi regalia are out (at least with me), but I am also concerned about free speech and expression. It's a very fine line sometimes.

T-shirt that says "I don't like Jews" = tacky but not illegal
T-shirt that says "Kill all the Jews"= hate speech, and illegal

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:46 am

Bah, fashion designers crave attention and thrive on being provocative. Sometimes they go over the line, even among their circles. This is why I don't care for fashion. G0yim shouldn't decide what looks good on me.

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:51 am

Israeli_C wrote:

That's a strange statement.
You are influenced by global fashion whether you like it or not. Otherwise you would wander around like the Bedouins, I'm guessing that's the closest to Sarah Imeinu's style.

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:53 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Of course I can't change what's on offer in the shops, but I don't pay attention to magazines, "celebs" or what's 'in' when purchasing clothing. I also shop in 'frum stores' so basically what's available there today is much the same as what they had a few decades ago.

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:54 am

And appropriation is everywhere.
Israeli C, you just posted on another thread about how the Israeli women's huge colourful turbans remind you of Winnie Mandela.

I have no idea what she looks like, but yes I always thought there is something African about these turbans.

I dont see it as appropriation, I see it as being inspired by others. How sterile fashion would be if we weren't influenced by other cultures.

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:57 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Frum styles also change. The shops are not carrying what they carried a few decades ago!
I say this as the least fashion conscious person around.

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 10:58 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Actually I didn't say that, someone else did and I laughed at her joke. My point was that it was rather pointless to wear a mitpachat when all of one's hair is hanging out anyway. Re cultural appropriation- I think they look ridiculous in general, without any connection to Africans. Tbh I didn't see any link before the other poster made that statement.

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:00 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Frum styles also change. The shops are not carrying what they carried a few decades ago!
I say this as the least fashion conscious person around.

If there are changes, they are certainly minimal. I shop in Bnei Brak, not Borough Park

SixOfWands

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:00 am

Israeli_C wrote:

I highly doubt that.

For example, when was the last time that you purchased a tee shirt with thick shoulder pads. There was a point in time when it would have been de riguer. Nowadays, no one wears them.

In any case, you're following the "frum" style of dress (whatever that is), which is no different than following anything else.

As to cultural appropriation, yes, there are issues. And yes, some people take the issue too far.

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:03 am

SixOfWands wrote:

I can't purchase what isn't available to me. Whatever's in the shops, I buy what I like. My point isn't that I'm reinventing the wheel, it's that I don't look at Miss X in a magazine and insist on looking like her or I don't decide that "maxis are out" and throw all of mine in the trash.

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:05 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Sorry, didnt remember who said it I guess.

Btw it's not pointless - many women cover only as a 'sign' or signal they are frum married women. They dont believe you need to cover all your hair. For some it's also more of a social or cultural signifier. That doesnt make it pointless.
In some North African countries, I believe the custom was just to tie a mitpachat the width of a bandana.

Anyway, I don't think they look ridiculous, I think they look rather regal. (I personally dont cover that way, but many of my colleagues do).
Did you mean the colourful turbans are ridiculous, or just the ones with the hair out?

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:12 am

Is this appropriation? Linor Abergil, famous Israeli model/lawyer/public figure.
These turbans really remind me of Africa.
(This turban was in all the media last week, after a retired judge mocked her and the turban on Twitter. Tons of public figures supported her and posted pics of themselves in turbans).

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:13 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Then let me rephrase this; as someone who follows halacha and sees hair covering as more than just a 'sign' 'signal' or 'cultural signifier', I find putting a turban on one's head with all the hair out utterly pointless. It seems we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

SixOfWands

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:19 am

Israeli_C wrote:

No, but you purchase what is in the store. Which offers what is "in" at the moment. You're following trends.

I have a friend who doesn't follow trends at all. She wears jumpers and overall dresses all the time. I doubt you could find these things in regular stores, so she either makes them herself or buys them at thrift stores. THAT's not following fashion trends.

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:21 am

Israeli_C wrote:

If there are changes, they are certainly minimal. I shop in Bnei Brak, not Borough Park

Bnei Brak has some very fashionable stores. Frum women come there to shop from all over Israel.

33055

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:25 am

I love cultural appropriation. Life lost some richness when we can't wear turquoise jewellery or make Indian beaded bracelets.

I love different and unique which I would buy when I travel. I loved the second hand stores in the village. My "famous" shirt was a bowling shirt with the name Frank on it. Now I would be accused of culturally appropriating CIS males.

juggling

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:25 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I was going to point out the same thing. There are two approaches in halacha for why we cover our hair. One approach is that the hair is immodest and needs to be covered. For that approach a modest wig serves the purpose well. The other approach is that the hair covering is a sign that the woman is married. According to that approach many women are okay with an obvious hat or mitpachat that leaves the hair out. And those same women sometimes won't wear wigs because it isn't "obvious" enough. Of course there are also those who require that the covering be both full and obvious.