Do any segulos work statistically?

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 3:55 am

agreer wrote:

I once heard a really beautiful dvar torah on this thought, but I don't remember who said it. The rabbi said that this segulah works even though you know "why" you're doing it. Even if it is selfish, and even if the only reason you daven for someone else is so you'll get what you want, you should still daven for someone else, because that's how important davening is. It was a lovely message.

Another "proven" segulah is giving maaser and then gaining wealth. Hashem says "Test Me" and doesn't "mind" if you only give maaser to get rich. He's happy to help you. I've heard this over and over from so many people in the business world.

How is the maaser segulah a proof? I'd say it's a big question. Don't you agree that we see many people who give maaser and are poor? Next time someone posts here worried about money let's just tell them to give maaser since hashem will make them rich by doing so.

PinkFridge

Tue, May 21 2019, 6:04 am

mirror wrote:

Hashem created this world combining nature and miracles. Within the natural order of the world there are loopholes. Davening is one such loophole. I recently met a gentile couple in the park. The black husband grew up in a bad neighborhood. He said most of his friends died of gunshots. He said he was also shot and showed me his bullet scar. I asked him how he survived. He said he prayed to G-d every day. He now drives a truck and has a wife and children.

I've heard that tefilla was built into nature. It always has a positive effect, even if we don't see it.

This discussion is reminding me of how I heard avodah zara described, and it works in our days too. There really was a power, and harnessing those powers was a shortcut to get the desired results, instead of the hard work of davening and creating a relationship with Hashem. (Plus the requisite hishtadlus.) Now, it means ascribing results to a power other than Hashem. (Like the guy who finds the parking space.)

I won't castigate all segulos. After all, the Torah itself lists a few - kibud av and shiluach hakein lead to arichus yamim. Even then, though, we can't forget Acher, and that arichus yamim can mean olam habah. This is the danger of waiting for segulos, or any hishtadlus, to "work." Because when they don't we still have to put one foot in front of the other and go one. With joy.

And get a load of this quote from Quotable Quotes, Readers Digest Apr. 2019 from actor Lauren Graham: "Life doesn't often spell things out for you when you want it; otherwise it wouldn't be called life. It would be called 'vending machine.'"

We don't say "life" or "the universe." We say "G-d" and that works quite well here.

youngishbear

Tue, May 21 2019, 6:13 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Fair enough. I don't want to get this into apikorsis territory, but the reason religious people who pray live longer is because they feel their life has meaning. They also are happier because they are able to rationalize bad things by saying gd has a plan that we don't understand. I don't think you can say that it is a reward from gd. Do frum jews have in the US or Israel who daven to hashem live longer on average than Buddhist people in Japan who pray to a completely fictitious made up gd?

Do you think we could empirically prove Judaism to be the religion that's best for your health? How would you even isolate the variables in such a study?

(I was going to say if we could do that, everyone would convert, and where would be the nisayon and bechirah in that? But seeing what's going on with vaccinations, maybe not...)

As PinkFridge said, the whole attitude of tefilah or segulos being used as currency in a cosmic vending machine is not what it's supposed to be. It probably comes from the way we understood tefilah as children. Jews don't believe in the just world hypothesis, but in a just afterlife.

PinkFridge

Tue, May 21 2019, 6:43 am

youngishbear wrote:

I do believe that ultimately we will see true justice in this world. And sometimes we get some serious peeks. We just can't expect it.

PinkFridge

Tue, May 21 2019, 7:50 am

marina wrote:

the only segulah that works is making decisions based on data and statistics. Unfortunately that one is not super popular just yet lol

THAT is hishtadlus.
But even that's not foolproof.
Klal Yisrael's above statistics ;-D

I was going to hit send but I just must add: We can't rely on hishtadlus alone. Tefilla is the catalyst. It's the spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down.

Or maybe, just maybe, tefilla is the true hishtadlus and our worldly hishtadlus as per your post is the catalyst....

urban gypsy

Tue, May 21 2019, 8:01 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

I think the premise of the question is all wrong.

We are not here to get what we want.

We are here to serve Hashem, iow to mould what we want to the Ratzon of Hashem. (and then btw we do end up getting what we want).

So the reason that the segulah for finding lost objects that is brought down in the gemara is "ok" is because it opens your eyes to the way that Hashem runs and is in charge of the world. If done correctly I think you are left with a feeling if "I'm so glad that I lost this object because it has given me an opportunity to reconect with Hashem, and to give tzeddaka which I wouldn't have done otherwise. It doesn't even matter if I don't find the object, finding it will just be a nice bonus".

My experience is that most segulahs don't work like that. They are about instrumentalising Hashem, trying to get Him to do what WE want. That's why they are very peoblematic/assur.

I could not agree more MitzadSheni with every single word you posted here.
Relying on segulos has brought only destruction into my life.
I'm working through this with my therapist who is helping me to see that magical thinking is a flawed way of looking at the world. Believing you can control outcomes of things through your actions is a sure path to disappointment.
However I do use the segulah for lost objects with the kavana you elucidated here, and it works every time Baruch Hashem!

PinkFridge

Tue, May 21 2019, 8:15 am

urban gypsy wrote:

Somehow I skipped the second half of the first page. Me too.

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 8:28 am

PinkFridge wrote:

[u]

How is klal yisroel above statistics? Very often we do our hishtadlus based on statistics. If someone is c'vs sick, we try to find the "best" doctor even if it means traveling. Who's the best doctor? The one who has the best statistics. There are many more similar examples. Frum, gd fearing people very much follow statistics whether it's looking for the right doctor, school, or car mechanic.

PinkFridge

Tue, May 21 2019, 8:33 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

What I mean is, of course we do our hishtadlus based on statistics. But ever since the bris bein habesarim, we know that yeshuos can come under any situation. But it's tipshus not to employ the statistics in making the necessary decisions.

ShishKabob

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:11 am

It's interesting to me that people take segulos as fool proof. A segula is a help, it's not a vadai. Certain things are vadai. You have to know the exact segula as well, not just what it morphed into.
And you have to know which segulos have documented, verifiable sources and which ones are just 'babbeh maases'. (I know some babbeh maases that have validity also, but I'm not going there)
It's interesting to me how science for example would be able to reconcile relying on bitachon and seeing unnatural results.
To my brain, science can't document such stuff or do studies on such things exactly because of the nature of these things.
A lot of the power of segulas, are powered by the extent of the belief in them in the persons mind. How can science gauge that?

amother

Apricot

Tue, May 21 2019, 10:38 am

I believe a lot of segulos work because of our unconscious mind.

If you do a segulo to find a lost object and believe you will find it, then maybe somehow your unconscious remembers where it is.

If you do a segulo to get rid of mice and believe in it, maybe subconsciously you change your habits to not leaving food around and plug up some holes in the wall.

I came as close as a person can to dying last year and still live to talk about it. My doctors throw around the word "miracle" in relation to the fact I am alive. Most doctors and hospitals would not have operated on me.

I am a firm believer in thoughts and prays. DH says they only work if you believe.

But is it the thoughts and prayers and belief in them or the top medical doctors or the research done to find them or my will to live and my compliance with Dr's orders that makes the difference. Or some combination thereof?

Segulos bring a heightened focus to the solution at the unconscious level.

iyar

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:37 am

PinkFridge wrote:

According to the אור החיים tefillah is the צינור. It’s a sort of pipeline. There may be an instance where abundance or brachos are meant to come to you. Tefillah is the conduit that brings them down to you.

amother

Mauve

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:42 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I sometimes see someone post that they did a certain segulah and achieved the desired result. An example would be shidduchim. Obviously, many are doing the segulah and it isn't working. Many are not doing the segulah and hashem is giving them the desired result anyway.
Is there any segulah that people believe work from a statistical standpoint, and not just a "what do you have to lose standpoint"?

Segulos and statistical are an oxymoron. If you believe in segulos then there are no statistics.

urban gypsy

Tue, May 21 2019, 11:52 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Segulos and statistical are an oxymoron. If you believe in segulos then there are no statistics.

Um wat? Stats can measure events. If a person performs an act, and then other events occur, that can be recorded and measured, and the relationship between them analyzed.

amother

Wheat

Tue, May 21 2019, 12:06 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Um wat? Stats can measure events. If a person performs an act, and then other events occur, that can be recorded and measured, and the relationship between them analyzed.

There is a common misunderstanding that people "believe in statistics". Of course stats aren't a belief system.

mirror

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:12 pm

Some people speak Loshon Hora and don't realize it. It's sad because Hashem will cause them to lose the good things they have when they speak Loshon Hora. Loshon Hora has the spiritual power of making bad things happen to good people no matter how hard they daven. If someone speaks Loshon Hora about you then you get good things even if you don't deserve them.

Last edited by mirror on Tue, May 21 2019, 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:13 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

First of all, NOBODY here said segulah's are fool proof. I don't know which thread you're reading but nobody said that here.
Forget science. Do you personally believe that people who say birchas haaman, or another segulah for parnassah, are more financially successful than those that don't?
Do you personally believe taken as an entire group, that those who do segulah's to have children are more fertile than those that don't?

urban gypsy

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:23 pm

mirror wrote:

If someone speaks Loshon Hora about you then you get good things even if you don't deserve them.

That doesn't sound right to me. If you do bad things that cause others to speak LH about you, then do you get good things you don't deserve? Does that good cancel out your bad?