American Yeshivish

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, May 22 2019, 5:37 pm

mig100 wrote:

guess what?? when I look at the turns my life took- it clearly wasnt in hashems plans for me either. its something I wish for more than anything. we dream of being able to have dh go back to kollel. right now- its not where life took us

gueuss what? my life didnt go exactly as the picture perfect life they painted in high school either

and you know something? I honestly dont feel one bit inferior to my many friends and relatives whos dhs are in kollel and married much longer than me.

life is not as simple as they paint in high school. life is about being the best person you can be and making the best of every situation.

smile- I dont know if others are looking down on you- or thats just your projection. and if they do- WHO CARES???

you are an incredibly hardworking person- your are a wife and mother who worked yourself to the bone while your dh learned and are still working hard because of the financial pressure those year face you with

if people look down upon you -because your dh didnt learn fulltime for 20 years- those people are the ones I feel bad for - they have their priorities messed up.

I knew if I started posting- I wouldnt be able to stop- theres a lot more I can say on this- enough for now.

The bolded.

And to add, the same for her dh. He's taking steps to support his family, to fulfill his obligations in the kesuba, and he should hold his head high. Maybe not right now, but some day in the future he'll be hearing different types of comments from people.

amother

Wed, May 22 2019, 6:13 pm

mig100 wrote:

As I said, the primary reason DH left kollel was because he wasn't feeling sipuk from his learning, not for financial reasons. Now, I still blame myself somewhat for that, since he had a hard time learning because he was busy dealing with everything while I was expecting.

I have an inferiority complex from high school (see my posts on the thread about certain girls getting the good jobs over and over again). I guess it carried over. I know I'm doing the right thing, just wish that my friends and mentors wouldn't look down on me for it.

I probably need new friends and mentors, right?

But I said that before. DH and I are both just doing our own thing now with no real sense of community or bigger purpose.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

mig100

Wed, May 22 2019, 6:15 pm

smileforamile wrote:

DH is not feeling the kind of insecurity I am. I think he knew it was time to make a change.

I understand where your feelings of insecurity and inferiority come from- we do live in a very judgy world

you know something- if you truely value yourself as the worthwhile person, hardworking wife and mother that you are- other people's judgements wont matter as much.

as you go through life- friends and communities change- it takes time- over time you will find friends you relate to better.

in the meantime- just remember that you are an accomplished hardworking person.

mig100

Wed, May 22 2019, 6:22 pm

smileforamile wrote:

you worked yourself to the bone- working with 2 little kids and going back to work 5 weeks post partum- what on earth do you feel guilty for??? enough with the guilt. us women can always be busy being guilty.

yes - overtime as you go through life you will find people that relate to you better. in the meantime- just ignore their judgement. (easeier said than done, I know) its no ones place to judge.

maybe its easier for me- since im just the type that doesnt notice others judgements as much. see my previous posts. im strange- I dont think its my responsibility to live up to other peopls judgement at all.

and no- im not opening that thread. I think what goes on in high school is horrible. its bad enough that I had to live through it. I dont want to read it and live through it again- I know what you mean without reading it.

Notsobusy

Wed, May 22 2019, 7:30 pm

keym wrote:

When relatives or friends are particularly obnoxious (your husband learned for only 7 years) I tell myself that he's taking a break.
But yes, I get the looking down thing a lot.

I"m really surprised to hear this and I'm surprised by other posters who wrote similar things. I live in Lakewood and I'm pretty sure you posted earlier that you also live in Lakewood. I have a lot of very yeshivish relatives, and when my husband left kollel we lived in a pretty yeshivish neighborhood. We never heard such kind of comments from anybody.

I wonder if it's because we're a little older, we're married for over 20 years. Did this change int the past 10 years or so?

Also, these people who are making comments, how long did they learn in kollel? I know so few people who stayed in kollel for more than 5 - 10 years, that I can't even imagine who feels they have the right to say obnoxious things. Even my really, really yeshivish cousins go to work eventually, they try to get klei kodesh jobs, but they do have to leave kollel eventually.

keym

Wed, May 22 2019, 7:37 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

Honestly the obnoxious comments come from non Lakewood relatives.
But I do get some looking down that my husband isn't in Klei kodesh.

Chayalle

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:22 am

keym wrote:

The week my husband left kollel, we sat down and decided that our mindset was that him leaving is temporary. It might be 30,40, or 50 years, but iyh when he retires, he'll be back learning in kollel.
It helps both of us not feel so disappointed. And also, when he goes out at night to learn, we tell each other that he doesn't want to fall behind.
When relatives or friends are particularly obnoxious (your husband learned for only 7 years) I tell myself that he's taking a break.
But yes, I get the looking down thing a lot.

I love this. I think I grew up on this ideal - it's probably what lead me to the Kollel life - my father was shocked (that's not even a strong enough word) when I told him I want to marry a learning boy, where on earth did I get that from? I was raised on the principles of the husband being the breadwinner. And I told him - from you.

Because my father never left learning. He learned with my brothers every day, and then headed right out to learn at night. He had a steady Chavrusah all the years I was growing up - every night, and Sundays, and Shabbos, he was always learning. If we went to the park, he had a Sefer in his pocket. In the emergency room when I injured my foot and we waited forever because there was an accident that had just come in - my father had a Sefer prepared. That's why when he retired and went back to learning, the transition was not difficult - because he had never left.

Also, once we kids were a little bigger and he wasn't being woken up at night from crying babies, he learned Daf Yomi every morning. Each cycle was new and more - like, after my brother got married and he no longer had sons to learn with at home (though he still learns with my brothers on the phone, each one once a week - they all live in E"Y) he added Tosfos and other commentaries to his Daf cycle. At the Siyum Hashas, I stand in the womens' section and I say Mazel Tov Ta. Learning Torah is his life. (Last time I made him a surprise Shalosh Seudos, and two of my sisters and their families walked over.) On top of this, last year for the Yartzeit of my mother A"H he made a siyum on Yerushalmi.

I think my father learns more than the average Kollel man, he has kept up all the years. He just took a break to support his family.

I guess that's why I don't even get the looking down thing. Are there people out there who would look down on my father? I dare them to get into a learning conversation with him. Then we'll talk.

amother

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:24 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

OP it sounds like a lot of your unhappiness comes from your job. Why do you hate it so much?

You're right. I'm a public school teacher. I hate the classroom management. I hate the prep. I hate the administration and the bureaucracy of the DOE. I hate that I come home feeling drained and unfulfilled every day.

I am going to switch fields as soon as I can BE'H. It's just hard to forego the pretty decent salary, health insurance, pension, etc. It's also hard for me to figure out what to do, although I have a few plans.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:28 am

smileforamile wrote:

Um what? And you blame yourself why? You know, your husband could've learned better if he had stayed single, too. No wife to distract him, no babies, no pregnancy.

I'm joking here, of course. It's a mitzva to get married, that's what he was supposed to do, and if that detracted from his learning, I think we can say Bitula Zu Hi Kiyumah here.

Smile, can you wrap up all that guilt and throw it out the window? I think you should be proud that you did your very best, and now you are doing your best at the next stage in life.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:33 am

smileforamile wrote:

I’m not a teacher but I work at public schools. Is this your first year teaching? I hear the first year is the hardest. At least you have the summer off soon and if you go back next year I hope it goes better.

keym

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:43 am

Chayalle wrote:

It's the general attitude, I guess.
My husband is a lot like your father. Learning every spare second he can, listening to shiurim, etc.
Yet when we are at a family get together where 85% are still learning, he gets talked over.
Even if he's holding in a sugya, some 19 year old yeshiva boy will check what he says because "you're just a baal habas, we need to make sure."
When he made a siyum on Shas, there were strong comments on "it not counting".
And I've heard from several men that as the excitement for the Siyum Hashas approaches, there is a very strong disdain in yeshivas. It's more like "these balabatim think they're acquiring gantze Shas by learning in a Shiur an hour a day. So we throw a whole celebration. Yay them. But we all know the truth they have only a pale imitation."

Obnoxious, I know.
It mostly is in the younger set (18-28). As men get older 30,40,50, they gain a maturity.
But OP says she's in this younger age range.
So I could totally hear that she gets the attitude.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:49 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Nope, I disclosed pretty much everything (not all in one post but in the course of several posts on this thread.) I said I started off with wedding money (somewhere between 10-20k I honestly don't remember). I had no student loans because my parents BH paid for my schooling in full. I started off my married life almost done with my masters and I got a high paying job right way (started off at 70K and moved up to 80k within a couple years). Didn't have kids the first two years. Lets say I spent approx 30k each those two years (don't really remember, but rent for our one bedroom started off at under 900 in KGH 15 years ago and that was our biggest expense. I had insurance from work. I bought cheap food and hardly any new clothing.)
So before kids I put about 25-30k in saving for each of two years. That's 70k of savings right there if you add in our wedding money. Even when I did have children, they didn't add tons to our expenses so fast so we still put some in savings, though obv not that much. We never moved out of our one bedroom, so rent only went up the percentage our landlord was allowed to raise us per year. I nursed/pumped, I made my own baby food from old produce I got very cheaply. I clothed them in hand me downs from the local gemach. My stroller, cribs, swing, etc. were all hand me downs. $5 per kid per hour in babysitting (and my babysitter actually supplied food) and diapers were our biggest added expenses. By the time my fourth was born (our last year in kollel) we started having to dip into our savings. But the 6 years until that we put money away, less and less each year obviously.
Do the numbers make sense now? Because I am portraying them honestly, and no - I am not hiding anything. No need to be synical...

Ok thanks for clarifying. Not everyone has these factors..

Chayalle

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:54 am

keym wrote:

Said 19 year old needs a crash course in middos and derech eretz. I'll skip for my daughters, thank you very much.

Not counting?

What on earth are they teaching men in yeshivos these days if they can act like this?

This is not the world I come from.

Chayalle

Thu, May 23 2019, 9:58 am

keym wrote:

And some of these so-called yeshiva guys who think they are doing such amazing learning are missing so much background too. My father has a masters in engineering from Columbia, then switched and took actuarial exams. He gets really into the math areas of the Gemarah - not going to go into this too far but he is an expert at a certain area and has been consulted by mechabrei seforim on this, has had conversations on the topic with Gedolim. Let those yeshiva guys have a conversation with him, and he will have to check up on them to make sure they know what they are talking about. My father will research the scientific background of a topic he is learning. Nothing cursory about it.