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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Haredi school for BTs, Gerim, Sfardim, etc.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 6:23 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
What I am seeing is the shtark divide... Too modern or too closed.... Not intetested in my son learning about Disney movies and sports.... I mean FFB is all he knows. I guess u can say 1st generation. So to put him in the modern environment is not easy. I just dnt know. Crying


I don't live in Israel
I've never even been there
Yes for real . Lol

So I don't understand.
Are you staying that sinas chinom and Midas esav is better than Disney movies
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 6:47 am
amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:
I live in Jerusalem. A few things I want to mention about Haredi Chinuch in Israel which some readers may not be aware of:

1. Almost all 1st grade-8th grade (Kita Alef-Tet) Beis Yaakovs in Israel are Chinuch Atzmai, directly under the Haredi Misrad HaChinuch, meaning they cannot refuse to accept you if you are from their surrounding area. If you live in Ramat Eshkol for example, there is a Beis Yaakov serving that area (Beis Yaakov Hatzafon) which by law MUST accept you, so long as you are Haredi. Same thing for Bayit VeGan (Beis Yaakov Bayit VeGan), Geula (Beis Yaakov Merkaz- which has many Sefardim btw), and etc. Every area in Jerusalem has its own Beis Yaakov which is forced to accept all Haredi girls in the area.

2. Often your locally assigned Beis Yaakov will tell you they don't have to accept you, because they think you are a 'frier' chutznik who doesn't know any better. They will try to pull a fast one on you- happened to me and many of my friends. Know that the principal of a Beis Yaakov or Chinuch Atzmai Talmud Torah MUST accept you by law if you are 1) Haredi; 2) from the local that school serves. If the school refuses to accept you (and this happens all the time), you must go to the Haredi Misrad HaChinuch on Safra Square, and the very nice ladies there will take cake of things for you real quick. They are used to this, especially with Sefardim and people from Chutz L'Aretz.

2. Many areas around Jerusalem also have their own Beis Yaakovs under Haredi Misrad HaChinuch, so check around and see if your area has the same.

3. Talmud Torahs which are Chinuch Atzmai and consequently under Misrad HaChinuch also cannot refuse you, if you are Haredi and assigned to that local.

If you want to know which Beis Yaakov and/or Talmud Torah you must to go to in your area, go to your local Haredi Misrad Hachinuch. I personally dealt with this issue and learned a lot. So I hope my experience can be of help to you.


But how are you treated once you are in the school? Does the administration/ parent body not look down upon/exclude/shun someone who got in this way? Isn’t the child treated as an equal? Do parents allow these children to play with their own?
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 6:48 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
I don't live in Israel
I've never even been there
Yes for real . Lol

So I don't understand.
Are you staying that sinas chinom and Midas esav is better than Disney movies


Agreed! And people wonder why mashiach isn’t coming....
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nia73




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 9:16 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
But how are you treated once you are in the school? Does the administration/ parent body not look down upon/exclude/shun someone who got in this way? Isn’t the child treated as an equal? Do parents allow these children to play with their own?


This was my thinking as well... It is reminiscent (slightly) of what people went through during the abolition of slavery or the end of the Jim Crow/segregation era in the US.

Yes, laws were in place but what people had to deal with (on many levels still do today as we can see more drastically in last few years)... If we took a step back and looked at it from a macro level, this is a major component to why affirmative action was instilled in the 1st place. The maltreatment and discrimination did not end with slavery or Jim crow ending.

Yes many kids are mistreared and abused (esp if not seen as human but more like 🐵 or sexualized objects [deep underground problem]).

Yes families are shunned as friers and worst as the feeling of "you forced yourself on us, we don't want you and you are gonna know it until you get out" is really where issues come to a head. Not just Black Jews (borm Jew or ger) deal with this as we see it is an across the board problem that has grand implications.

I see why you mentioned BTs, gerim, Sfardim OP. Pm me, maybe we can get together with others (anyone here ferl free to message me as well) and see what can be realistically done to support this special but underserved part of Am Israel.
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nia73




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 9:40 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
I don't live in Israel
I've never even been there
Yes for real . Lol

So I don't understand.
Are you staying that sinas chinom and Midas esav is better than Disney movies


Both are assur. We cannot continue to jump from the frying pan into the fire. We all have to make cheshbon of our choices and cannot say to HaShem "well they would not "let" me live as a Haredi so I softened my standards and decided that since I cannot be in their schools, communities, etc. being like esav in other ways is ok (e.g. being sports fans, watching TV, seeing these G-d aweful movies, etc.)

Don't think 4 a second that HaShem is ok with so many kids wanting to play baseball, watch Frozen & play fortnight opposed to learning His Torah. Middot haEsav comes in many different forms.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 9:51 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
But how are you treated once you are in the school? Does the administration/ parent body not look down upon/exclude/shun someone who got in this way? Isn’t the child treated as an equal? Do parents allow these children to play with their own?


How would the parents know who "got into" the school because Haredi Misrad Hachinuch called for them? The only ones who know are 1) the parents and 2) the principal. Teachers have NO idea who "got in" against the principal's will, and other parents even less so! I know a lot of people who 'got into' school this way, and in Israel it's unfortunately 'normal,' especially for Sefardim and Americans, to either need Misrad HaChinuch or a Rov to call a school for them and assist with admissions. At the seminary level, 1 week before school starts, the office is full of worried mothers trying to get their daughter a seminary because they were rejected from every seminary they applied to. This is the not-so-pretty side of life in Israel, especially Jerusalem. But this happens to A LOT of people. Israelis know to ask a Rov for help and if that doesn't do the job, then go to the Haredi Misrad HaChinuchf, but unfortunately some Americans are too proud or feel like this is a shameful position to be in. It's not!

In our case Misrad HaChinuch helped us find a school that was a better fit than out assigned area school. that school was out of our area and the school didn't have to let us in, but BH they did. We didn't know much about the school Misrad HaChinuch directed us to, but BH it turned out to be a much better chinuch and social body than the school we originally asked them to help us out with.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 10:02 am
nia73 wrote:

Yes many kids are mistreared and abused (esp if not seen as human but more like 🐵 or sexualized objects [deep underground problem]).

Yes families are shunned as friers and worst as the feeling of "you forced yourself on us, we don't want you and you are gonna know it until you get out" is really where issues come to a head. Not just Black Jews (borm Jew or ger) deal with this as we see it is an across the board problem that has grand implications.

I see why you mentioned BTs, gerim, Sfardim OP. Pm me, maybe we can get together with others (anyone here ferl free to message me as well) and see what can be realistically done to support this special but underserved part of Am Israel.


Was this your personal experience? Because I should say that it BH was not ours. I cannot agree with this statement that families are "shunned" for 'forcing themselves upon us.' The better teachers here really try to help every student feel welcome. Yes there are teachers who have 'sinas chinam' for some girls because they are different, but in those classes it's all the girls who are a bit different, and they're all in the same boat together.

Here's the thing about chinuch in Israel. It doesn't cost much- free for Beis Yaakov and a few hundred shekels per month for Talmud Torah. They have small budgets to work with, and teachers are overworked and underpaid. We're not paying much (if anything) for Haredi education, and so we can't expect American standards.

My opinion is that if you want your kids to have the best future and fall in with the right crowd, you have to get them into a mainstream Haredi school. A school for people who are coming from the outside (BT, Gerim, etc.) would condemn your kids to virtually no choices for yeshivah/seminary and a life of social isolation from the 'mainstream.' I'm not being sensationalist- that's how it is here. This is just the way Israel works, and we would only chas v'shalom hurt our kids by trying to change it, starting with them. For their sake we have to do whatever it takes to get them in the right schools here.
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nia73




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 10:48 am
BH Iam speaking from the macro level, not personal Royal Blue. This is a statistical problem.

I do understand what you are speaking of. This is very much what people that are minorities in a social structure do. From trying to change their phenotypical attributes (I.e. skin bleaching, cosmetic surgery, etc.) and behavior (lingustic expression, non-verbal mannerisms, etc.) to white washing (marrying a member of the minority in hopes to have children that will also marry someone with favorable societal attributes) and shunning those who do not fit the mold.

This is where terms like fake Latino, Uncle Tom, and even frier to a certain degree come from. There are those who are willing to just hush and play the game under the auspice that presumed social acceptance out weigh these issues.

Meanwhile, others have a diffent world view of integrity. They do not want to sacrifice Yiddishkeit nor dignity. This is a very important aspect of chinuch.

Needing to be mainstream according to who? And those who decline to be subjected to this mold that is antithetical to Torah values, the presumption is isolation. This is institutionalized ethnic prejudice (also having class implications). Not everyone wants to subject themselves to maltreatment in the name of "this is how it is done". The alternative cannot always be to leave Israel (#1 or #2 reason for going back to country of origin and/or going off tne derek)
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 3:24 pm
nia73 wrote:
Both are assur. We cannot continue to jump from the frying pan into the fire. We all have to make cheshbon of our choices and cannot say to HaShem "well they would not "let" me live as a Haredi so I softened my standards and decided that since I cannot be in their schools, communities, etc. being like esav in other ways is ok (e.g. being sports fans, watching TV, seeing these G-d aweful movies, etc.)

Don't think 4 a second that HaShem is ok with so many kids wanting to play baseball, watch Frozen & play fortnight opposed to learning His Torah. Middot haEsav comes in many different forms.



Like everything else in Yahdut, its never black and white like you are making it

The C Chaim in Nidchei Yisroel explains how to be a yeed in the Czar's army

Reb Elchonon has many tshuvos on people in a matzav where they can either keep kosher or keep Shabbos

The Ketzos has numerous shailos of this nature

If its a choice, between being miserable and ultimately going OTD or being happy and fulfilled in the Torani school, that might be the way to go..
I know its a bitter pill to swallow

In any case, one should ask Daas Torah , NOT DAAS IMAMOTHER
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 3:33 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Like everything else in Yahdut, its never black and white like you are making it

The C Chaim in Nidchei Yisroel explains how to be a yeed in the Czar's army

Reb Elchonon has many tshuvos on people in a matzav where they can either keep kosher or keep Shabbos

The Ketzos has numerous shailos of this nature

If its a choice, between being miserable and ultimately going OTD or being happy and fulfilled in the Torani school, that might be the way to go..
I know its a bitter pill to swallow

In any case, one should ask Daas Torah , NOT DAAS IMAMOTHER


I guess no one was asking on what hashkafa to follow/how to be a yid. We are discussing empowerment in how to reinforce the system. Not challenge nor turn our backs on it.
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zebra111




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 3:43 pm
Op if ur still searching please feel free to pm me, also sefardi, husband bt and works, went through so much to finally find a wonderful place that I think could suit u from ur description
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