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S/o CIO from a hashkafic perspective
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:54 am
From my "American Yeshivish" thread - I didn't want to derail it:

PinkFridge wrote:
Maybe CIO from a hashkafa view. I heard IIRC b'shem Rav Hirsch that one shouldn't let a young baby (under a year?) cry because we are to relate to Hashem as a child to parents so we need to imprint on a young baby that his/needsher will always be cared for. They can't understand nuances at that age.


Chayalle wrote:
I love love love Rabbi Orloweck's anything on parenting (books, tapes, speeches, etc...) I remember hearing him speak once about babies, and he had the same approach. Dina Friedman also says to take care of a young baby as quickly as possible, because that's when they are developing trust.


My 10-month-old baby girl cries and cries whenever anyone dares put her to sleep. My mother tells me that I was the exact same way as a baby. There is nothing at all that she wants except not to be in bed. She could be beyond tired, but she'll scream and scream. Literally for over an hour.

What choice do I have other than CIO? There's nothing she wants. No bottle, pacifier, blankie, pillow, white noise, gentle shhhhing... it doesn't work. I've literally sat in her room for over an hour until she nods off -- only to have her start screaming the instant I leave.

What would you do in this situation?


Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:57 am
Read "How to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem" by Dr. Richard Ferber.

Sometimes you do have to let them cry, there's no other way - but rather than letting them scream endlessly and feel abandoned, you can keep going in to them at regular intervals to let them know that you are there, but that it's time to go to sleep.

I "feberized" each of my girls at various times (sometimes things reverted backwards and I had to repeat) and it worked for me every time - and usually more quickly than I expected.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:05 pm
My oldest was similar. We were in a one bedroom apartment for his first year and none of us had a great set up in terms of sleep. I found ferber made things worse when he saw me come and leave, he cried harder. We did CIO when we moved after his 1st birthday and it was awful but he learned to sleep normally and suffered no ill effects.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:06 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Read "How to Solve Your Child's Sleep Problem" by Dr. Richard Ferber.

Sometimes you do have to let them cry, there's no other way - but rather than letting them scream endlessly and feel abandoned, you can keep going in to them at regular intervals to let them know that you are there, but that it's time to go to sleep.

I "feberized" each of my girls at various times (sometimes things reverted backwards and I had to repeat) and it worked for me every time - and usually more quickly than I expected.


I always found that for my kids, going into the room just made them more upset. It was a tease.
I did CIO based on dr. Weissbluth and it worked after 1 day for my oldest, and 3 days for my next child.

Yes, they cried for an hour, but then they learned how to sleep on their own, and they have a healthy night's sleep because of it. (I never did that method for naps. I felt that for naps I could be more flexible, let them sleep in stroller or on floor with a blanket near me etc if that's what they preferred. But helping them learn how to sleep at night was a gift for them as well as myself.)
My kids are happy, loving children who don't hesitate to tell me when they need anything so I'm sure they were not adversely affected.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:10 pm
I did CIO based on my very own common sense and the circumstances.
Every child is different and some needed to cry more than others.
As far as I can tell my kids trust me just fine.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:15 pm
mha3484 wrote:
My oldest was similar. We were in a one bedroom apartment for his first year and none of us had a great set up in terms of sleep. I found ferber made things worse when he saw me come and leave, he cried harder. We did CIO when we moved after his 1st birthday and it was awful but he learned to sleep normally and suffered no ill effects.


That's what I'm finding when I come in. Also, my son sleeps in the same room and wakes up when I walk in, and then I have two screaming kids.


Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:16 pm
My pediatrician told me the same thing about teaching children Hashem will always take care of them.

Very nice but my child cried for 10-20 minutes before he went to bed every single time. There was nothing I could do about. Eventually he just went nicely.

Didn’t even think to ask a shaila regarding this matter Scratching Head
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:20 pm
I also think the whole "not letting a child cry" is not just about sleep.

I think feeding is a much bigger issue. I have seen parents who are very into the scheduling, and will keep a baby waiting because they are not "supposed" to be eating yet. I wonder if they apply the same discipline to themselves when they are hungry.

The basic premise is, a baby under a year needs to have his/her needs addressed - hungry, tired, needing to be changed, etc...all of these need to be addressed ASAP in order to develop trust. Neglecting a baby undermines that healthy process. I don't think it's the specific aspect that contributes to this - in some situations the right method might be CIO, and in some, the Ferber method will work - alot may depend on the setup, the particular child, etc... - but rather, that the whole approach of the parent should be to be responsive to the child and their needs, in order to develop trust.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:28 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I also think the whole "not letting a child cry" is not just about sleep.

I think feeding is a much bigger issue. I have seen parents who are very into the scheduling, and will keep a baby waiting because they are not "supposed" to be eating yet. I wonder if they apply the same discipline to themselves when they are hungry.

The basic premise is, a baby under a year needs to have his/her needs addressed - hungry, tired, needing to be changed, etc...all of these need to be addressed ASAP in order to develop trust. Neglecting a baby undermines that healthy process. I don't think it's the specific aspect that contributes to this - in some situations the right method might be CIO, and in some, the Ferber method will work - alot may depend on the setup, the particular child, etc... - but rather, that the whole approach of the parent should be to be responsive to the child and their needs, in order to develop trust.


I like this.
I think it's more than teaching children to develop trust in others.
It's about teaching children to trust themselves and their own body.
I think so many children were raised being told they are not hungry yet or tired yet, and they lose the ability to trust what their body is telling them.
Practically, someone I respect told me that if the newborn baby is crying to be fed, even if I can't this minute, validate the feeling. "Oh Baby Esti is so hungry. Mommy is finishing to prepare the chicken, then we'll feed Baby Esti." As opposed to saying " Baby Esti, it's not time to eat yet. I still need to prepare the chicken."
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:31 pm
This is not a hashkafic comment, but a practical one: If your DD is "beyond tired," it is more likely that she will scream. Overtired children have a harder time falling asleep, counterintuitive as it seems.

If you've tried everything, you might want to try reducing the time that she's up so that she goes to bed less tired, and see if that helps.

The book by Dr. Weissbluth is especially into this approach.
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ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:31 pm
I also wonder if there's a correlation between letting kids cry and autism. Someone I know said from a source, idk from where, that we mothers will have to give din v'cheshbon for every cry that we ignored. To me that sounds extreme. However, I do think it's not good for the overall well being of a child to let them cry and cry.
Where are they getting the one year thing from? I thought each kid is individual. Just like you can't make a rule by when a child needs to be toilet trained or other such thing.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:32 pm
Smile, I dont do cio until I am certain there are no medical issue and the child can comprehend that I still exist if they don't see me. ..

I think it's cruel to do CIO on a child that is too young to understand not his mommy will come back. That said I have done CIO at 10 months or two years depending on the child and on the medical issues and on the general sense of how the house was functioning
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:34 pm
keym wrote:
I like this.
I think it's more than teaching children to develop trust in others.
It's about teaching children to trust themselves and their own body.
I think so many children were raised being told they are not hungry yet or tired yet, and they lose the ability to trust what their body is telling them.
Practically, someone I respect told me that if the newborn baby is crying to be fed, even if I can't this minute, validate the feeling. "Oh Baby Esti is so hungry. Mommy is finishing to prepare the chicken, then we'll feed Baby Esti." As opposed to saying " Baby Esti, it's not time to eat yet. I still need to prepare the chicken."


Absolutely agree.

I also think that responding to the child verbally lets the child know you are with them.

(I remember times I parked DD in her infant seat right outside the bathroom. I'm human, after all...but I talked to her the whole time while she screamed because I had put her down....and I do think/hope it made a difference.)
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:35 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
I also wonder if there's a correlation between letting kids cry and autism. Someone I know said from a source, idk from where, that we mothers will have to give din v'cheshbon for every cry that we ignored. To me that sounds extreme. However, I do think it's not good for the overall well being of a child to let them cry and cry.
Where are they getting the one year thing from? I thought each kid is individual. Just like you can't make a rule by when a child needs to be toilet trained or other such thing.


That is hogwash...

Yes, it's not good to let a child cry and cry. But they also need to sleep. Which was is more harmful for the baby - crying until they fall asleep, or missing out on hours and hours of sleep every day and night? (She won't nap, either.)


Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:36 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
I also wonder if there's a correlation between letting kids cry and autism. Someone I know said from a source, idk from where, that we mothers will have to give din v'cheshbon for every cry that we ignored. To me that sounds extreme. However, I do think it's not good for the overall well being of a child to let them cry and cry.
Where are they getting the one year thing from? I thought each kid is individual. Just like you can't make a rule by when a child needs to be toilet trained or other such thing.


The source is a R' Yehuda HeLevi.

I do not agree that there's a correlation between autism and letting kids cry. I say this as one who has a brother on the spectrum. I think autism is a medical condition, and no mother should be blamed for it.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:36 pm
goodmorning wrote:
This is not a hashkafic comment, but a practical one: If your DD is "beyond tired," it is more likely that she will scream. Overtired children have a harder time falling asleep, counterintuitive as it seems.

If you've tried everything, you might want to try reducing the time that she's up so that she goes to bed less tired, and see if that helps.

The book by Dr. Weissbluth is especially into this approach.


I meant beyond tired because she refuses to nap during the day -- the same problem. She's not with me during the day, so I can't control that as much.


Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:38 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Smile, I dont do cio until I am certain there are no medical issue and the child can comprehend that I still exist if they don't see me. ..

I think it's cruel to do CIO on a child that is too young to understand not his mommy will come back. That said I have done CIO at 10 months or two years depending on the child and on the medical issues and on the general sense of how the house was functioning


My baby is 10 months old. She doesn't have medical issues B'H. She's just uncannily like her mommy was at that age.

It's a family joke that I refused to sleep as a baby.


Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:40 pm
When it's my kids' bedtime, I turn off the lights and lie in bed with him. He might cry, but he knows I'm holding there, and he knows I don't allow him to get out of bed. He ends up cuddling and going to sleep.

Having Mommy there and cuddling is the biggest comfort for babies- and sometimes rocking is needed to. A rocking recliner is a must for those kids.
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Metukah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:43 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
... Someone I know said from a source, idk from where, that we mothers will have to give din v'cheshbon for every cry that we ignored...


My mother said that often, not sure where her source was, but she specifically said that it was for crying from hunger.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:45 pm
Regarding autism, I heard it the other way around. Autistic babies cry more, and are harder to soothe, because of sensory issues. I have a friend who's newborn screamed bloody murder from the day he was born. I mean SCREAMED in agony. She knew right away that he was on the spectrum, and she was right. Lights, sounds, a wrinkle in a blanket, everything was too much for him to tolerate, and it took him forever to figure out how to self soothe.

Some babies have silent reflux, or colic, or other conditions that are keeping them awake, and they can't tell you what is bothering them. Crying is the only form of communication they have.

I could never CIO with DD, even though she had terrible colic and I was desperate for sleep. For the first 4 months of her life I walked the floor with her from 7pm to 4:45am (you could set your watch by it). It wasn't until I stopped nursing and switched her to a very expensive hypoallergenic formula that she got a decent night's sleep and started gaining weight.

Even if I wanted to CIO, her dad wouldn't let me. We tried it for one night, and he couldn't last 5 minutes. He was nearly in tears and ran to get her. He swore right then that we would never do that again, and I agreed.
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