S/o CIO from a hashkafic perspective

amother

Denim

Tue, May 21 2019, 12:47 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

When it's my kids' bedtime, I turn off the lights and lie in bed with him. He might cry, but he knows I'm holding there, and he knows I don't allow him to get out of bed. He ends up cuddling and going to sleep.

Having Mommy there and cuddling is the biggest comfort for babies- and sometimes rocking is needed to. A rocking recliner is a must for those kids.

Then what do you do when they fall asleep? If you put them down, they'll wake up. And in my case, my 2-year-old will also wake up.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

Maryann

Tue, May 21 2019, 12:49 pm

Interesting thread
A mother just told me (her kids are all grown up) that she has a great relationship with all of her kids besides her oldest. She strongly feels that shen she was a baby she let her cry herself to sleep every night (the other kids she didn't) for some reason she feels that sub consciously her oldest doesn't trust her and that's why they don't have a relationship

amother

Denim

Tue, May 21 2019, 12:53 pm

By the way, my baby is not crying from hunger. She was fed prior to going to sleep, ate her fill, and then started throwing food on the floor (which is her signal that she's finished. This happens every night).

We change her diaper before sleep. Sometimes, if she's screaming a certain way, I know she's dirty and I'll take her out and change her.

She's not hot or cold, since I've adjusted that a bunch of times.

She's a happy kid during the day for the most part. A little obsessed with being held at times, but she plays very nicely with her toys when they're interesting to her. She loves books.

She just hates going to sleep.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

ShishKabob

Tue, May 21 2019, 12:53 pm

Chayalle wrote:

The source is a R' Yehuda HeLevi.

I do not agree that there's a correlation between autism and letting kids cry. I say this as one who has a brother on the spectrum. I think autism is a medical condition, and no mother should be blamed for it.

Thank you for clarifying the autism thing and for the source.

Rappel

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:00 pm

Treat your child's needs.

If he's hungry, feed him.
If he's dirty, change him.
If he's thirsty, give him drink.
If he's lonely, play with him.
If he's bored, teach him.
And if he's tired, put him to sleep.

Consistency is key. If we answer our children's needs, we rear them to know the proper response to each need, and gear them to relate to others, including Hashem. I'm pretty sure that's what Rav Hirsch meant.

soap suds

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:00 pm

Maryann wrote:

Parent/child relationship is based on so many different factors. It's hard to believe that this one thing would ruin the relationship for life. Assuming a parent does everything else "right" from the day the kid is born until adulthood, I doubt the crying bouts as an infant will kill everything.

tichellady

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:03 pm

Cio doesn’t mean leaving a newborn to cry herself to sleep. No one advocates cio until baby can self- soothe ( typically 4-5 months) and nightweaning is not advised until baby weighs 15 lbs and eats well during the day. At that point some babies no longer need to be held or rocked, they need to learn to sleep on their own. Every baby is different but I can tell you that my baby cries more if I stay in the room or try to hold her once she goes to sleep. She needs to be alone and decompress a little before she is ready to go to sleep. And crying doesn’t always mean a baby is in pain or needs something- it’s how babies express a lot of emotions.

Ftr, I can’t stand my baby crying and I am very bad with sleep training but I understand why parents do it and think you can be a wonderful loving parent who does cio.

SuperWify

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:27 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I also think the whole "not letting a child cry" is not just about sleep.

I think feeding is a much bigger issue. I have seen parents who are very into the scheduling, and will keep a baby waiting because they are not "supposed" to be eating yet. I wonder if they apply the same discipline to themselves when they are hungry.

The basic premise is, a baby under a year needs to have his/her needs addressed - hungry, tired, needing to be changed, etc...all of these need to be addressed ASAP in order to develop trust. Neglecting a baby undermines that healthy process. I don't think it's the specific aspect that contributes to this - in some situations the right method might be CIO, and in some, the Ferber method will work - alot may depend on the setup, the particular child, etc... - but rather, that the whole approach of the parent should be to be responsive to the child and their needs, in order to develop trust.

I 100% agree. I gave my child to eat when he wanted, obviously I changed him as needed. It was just for the sleeping between 6 moths to a year that we tried to leave him for 10-20 minutes. If it was longer we would take him out. BH it worked and now he goes in without a peep. Now, if I put him in and he cries I know he isn't ready to sleep yet.

SuperWify

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:28 pm

pesek zman wrote:

I’m not yeshivish (obviously) but I don’t know these people who consult with their rabbi about sleep training. Pediatrician, yes. Rabbi, no.

I am yeshivish and it would not cross my mind to ask my Rabbi such a question.

chicco

Tue, May 21 2019, 1:32 pm

In Rav Hirsch's book on chinuch he davka says one should get in the habit of not responding immediately to a baby because when they are older they will already be conditioned to constantly expect an immediate response.

tichellady

Tue, May 21 2019, 2:46 pm

chicco wrote:

This is based on old fashioned ideas of child development that are some of our parents/grandparents were raised. I’m not sure he would say that now given what we know about child psychology

SisterSix

Tue, May 21 2019, 3:07 pm

tichellady wrote:

This is based on old fashioned ideas of child development that are some of our parents/grandparents were raised. I’m not sure he would say that now given what we know about child psychology

Well, then you could say the same thing about anything quoted previously on this thread from rabbonim on the topic of CIO

happinessseeker

Tue, May 21 2019, 3:24 pm

chicco wrote:

You can get a source for whichever method you choose. The main thing is it has to sit well with you. Personally this seems crazy to me because babies are so helpless and rely on us to soothe and take care of them but if it works for you then great.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, May 21 2019, 3:52 pm

smileforamile wrote:

From my "American Yeshivish" thread - I didn't want to derail it:

My 10-month-old baby girl cries and cries whenever anyone dares put her to sleep. My mother tells me that I was the exact same way as a baby. There is nothing at all that she wants except not to be in bed. She could be beyond tired, but she'll scream and scream. Literally for over an hour.

What choice do I have other than CIO? There's nothing she wants. No bottle, pacifier, blankie, pillow, white noise, gentle shhhhing... it doesn't work. I've literally sat in her room for over an hour until she nods off -- only to have her start screaming the instant I leave.

What would you do in this situation?

When my 10 month old does this it's usually because I'm putting her to sleep too late. I don't have this issue with her when I put her to sleep earlier. If she gets to the point of getting overtired that's when she has a hard time settling down and begins to scream. I noticed this pattern. So if I'm paying attention to the clock and get her into the crib early she will wimper for a minute and fall asleep. But if I put her in later she stands up and screams until I take her out.

Mommyg8

Tue, May 21 2019, 4:11 pm

chicco wrote:

I don't know anything about CIO and half of my kids are not sleepers, till today. Whatever I did wrong (bad genes, probably) it's too late now! Oh, and I really do regret letting one of my kids cry it out. I feel guilty till today.

I saw that Rabbi Hirsch said that one should try to say yes to a child as much as possible. Only say no if there's a reason to say no. I guess this piece of advice worked well with my personality, so I took it!

amother

Crimson

Tue, May 21 2019, 4:37 pm

chicco wrote:

Really, an infant? Interesting, as research shows something very different.

the world's best mom

Tue, May 21 2019, 5:22 pm

smileforamile wrote:

Then what do you do when they fall asleep? If you put them down, they'll wake up. And in my case, my 2-year-old will also wake up.

Some kids transfer more easily than others, but I've done this with all of my kids. They all go down eventually. I will admit that some of them made it challenging. Others were easier. Some go down more easily right when they fall asleep, and others need to be held for 5-10 minutes after falling asleep before going down. Some need to be put down in one quick movement, and others need very slow, gentle moves.

chicco

Tue, May 21 2019, 5:42 pm

chicco wrote:

I was sharing this only in response to the quote that started off this thread. I have not shared my personal feelings yet.