 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
|
amother
Oak
|
 Wed, May 22 2019, 6:35 am
| hotzenplotz wrote: | | A certain type of person becomes principals and teachers. There is no way they can understand people in general. |
What does that mean?
I’m a hs teacher, I feel a lot of frustration about the way jobs are divided up, and have spoken up about it many times. I’m hearing so much pain and frustration on this thread, and I understand that.
But what does this comment mean? What kind of people become teachers? What does it mean they can’t understand people?
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 7
|
singleagain
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 7:59 am
| abound wrote: | why would a school think that a quiet shy girl who never used her talents (volunteer etc) would be capable of running a shabbos or G.O.
I am asking sincerely. They need the G.O. to work out or the school/grade shabbos. How are they supposed to realize that the quiet girl in the back or the one who never uses her talents in anyway has the talents and the strength to do it? I understand that every girl should be given something to do but I am talking abt the girls who want GO or school shabbos?
Do you have any ideas?
(P.S. I do not have girls in HS and I am not part of any school.....just wondering) |
It's a catch 22.
I did direct skits in camp. So I know I was talented. But the school didn't know, so I didn't direct in school, and the school continued to not know I could do it.
I'll don't think I'm explaining that well... But basically... Bc, they never gave me a chance to showcase my talents, it we never seen.
I'm saying the girls who did the directing of skits weren't talented, but maybe there could have been a tryout or a committee or a sign-up... I remember asking a friend how she got the gig, told me she was chosen .... How did they know she'd be good it?
Actives like dance and choir had tryouts. I believe the decoration and other committees had sign-ups. Why not directing?
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
2
|
|
amother
Violet
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:18 am
Amother smokey, yes it is only fair that if your DD was main part in the 9th grade play, she should not get main part or a major job for the rest of high school. The school is big enough to give everyone a chance. This means that they're giving main jobs to the same girls.
As I said, you cannot understand the unfairness because your girls are the popular ones with the good jobs.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
14
|
|
amother
Bronze
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:27 am
I feel like I'm reading the letter that I wrote to the head of extracurriculars. I didn't realize so many other people were as hurt as I was by these experiences in high school.
To the mother who wrote that her daughters get the good jobs and why shouldn't they shine again, here's why: because as talented as your daughter is, high school isn't about having the play/chagiga/Shabbaton/paper/etc. come out "the best that it could possibly be." It's about showcasing different girls' talents, allowing them to find their strengths and build self-esteem. Confidence is so fragile in teenagers, especially with regard to their peers, and they need the chance to demonstrate their capabilities.
When I was in high school, whenever we had anything involving a kumzitz or dancing, it was always the same set of sisters who were playing the music. There were about 15 other girls in my grade alone who could play piano and guitar well, and I'm sure there were many more in other grades. It's a dumb thing, but lots of girls would've wanted to get an opportunity. But no, they had to choose the same girls.
The head of extracurriculars once went over to my friend's house when we were in 12th grade. They were working on a slideshow for one of the school events. My friend asked her, "Do you know which girls in our class can paint, draw, make slideshows, play music, sing, dance, etc.?" The teacher had no idea. She only knew the few girls whom she used over and over again.
Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
9
|
|
amother
Apricot
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:32 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Yup, Mrs. Sara Itzkowitz should go around the country and give seminars on how to run a school. Her philosophy on education and the school culture she created should be the models EVERY BY school follows. I always say Mrs. C.R. Twerski (Bnos Yaakov of Lakewood) for how to design a cumulative curriculum and and Mrs. Sarah Itzkowitz for how to design school culture. Two top educators in this country. They should give a joint seminar in every BY school. |
This post made my heart so happy. How is Mrs. Itzkowitz known outside of Baltimore? She has truly created a school where every girl shines. There is no "top" girl for anything. The girl who plays violin, does gymnastics, sings (yes, there is one girl like this and she is a sweet heart, sterling middos and her parents are dolls also) gets to shine in these ways... and the other girls love her and support her for her talents with a full heart because they are also loved and supported for their talents, there is no jealousy. I went to public school and a girl like this would be called a "triple threat" in that environment. And I've read these threads and the Mishpacha article, a girl like this would be the "top" girl. At Bnos, the girls are just happy for her to shine in her way and they know that they will shine in their way too.
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | OK-now for a different view. I was that girl who got the best jobs. But if you think my life was peaches and cream, it certainly wasn't. My family was NOT rich, well known.....In fact, I suffered terribly at home from a really critical mom and quite a bit of mental illness in the family. So being the top girl in school really saved my life and sanity.
Obviously I am only 1 person and not the average. But please before ranting and raving , know that you don't always know what's truly happening in another person's life. We all have to live with some pain and insecurity. As the Yiddish saying goes, "Alles in einem iz nisht du bay kaynem" "Nobody has everything." |
Pewter, I am so sorry for the hardships you had to deal with. But I promise you, you were not the only one, no matter how isolated you may have felt. There were others who also had a very hard home life. And they missed out on the best jobs. Why wasn't it enough to grant you the best job once, and give others the best job the other times?
| amother [ Smokey ] wrote: | Ok I’ll chime in from the other side.
As a mother of the G.O., Hc type of girls.
My daughters are nice, kind, capable and hardworking. They have been chosen and elected to be G.O.,H.C., yearbook editor, main part in play.....because of their character traits and talents.
They don’t let it get to their heads, but cherish the opportunity to use the talents hashem gave them. There are many other girls in their grades using their talents as well, some in dance, art, writing etc...
Why should my daughters not have their chance to use their leadership qualities.
Some posters mentioned that it runs in certain families to be chosen. I think each of May daughters is chosen on their own merit. Why should one lose out just because her sister was G.O. too? |
Forget the sister aspect for a minute. Each sibling is her own world. You really think its ok that the same girl is the head of yearbook AND main part in the play? Thats not ok, sorry. There are other girls who are also deserving. And there are other girls who have budding leadership qualities but are not given a chance for them to develop because girls like yours get all of the opportunities. No idea what H.C is, but these things should be once in 4 years type of thing.
At Bnos in Baltimore, the 11th graders get to be heads in Production and the 12th graders are heads of other things. There is literally no excuse, validation, or defense for picking the same girl over and over and letting the other ones miss out.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
8
|
BatyaEsther
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:37 am
Can someone please explain to me what these jobs are, why the girls want them and how not getting one destroys their life ?
(Genuine question- does it destroy their life because it impacts shidduchim? Their sense of self-esteem? Or their ability to get into school, Future jobs and parnassa?)
In my school, GO was elected by the student body, and of course a popularity contest, but everything else was a sign-up committee and you work your way up. Your book editor was the person who volunteered freshman year and work every year on the yearbook, head of the chessed committee was the senior who has been on the committee since freshmen year and always showed up and when the extra mile to put in legwork. Plays /dance had auditions. ....
Thank you
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
2
|
|
amother
Green
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:49 am
This has been an interesting thread to follow, and I think I'd like to add my two cents as a mom of a bunch of teenage girls.
My girls are very different from each other, and they went to different HS.
One was the quiet genius professor type. She never really put herself out there from the beginning of school; never volunteered for anything. When she got certain small jobs here and there, like class shabbos or chagiga, she did what she had to do as a member of the group, but didn't really make herself indispensable or assertive. When she got to 12th grade, she wanted to be head of concert, and she put that down on the sheet as her first choice. She got head of backstage/technical. She was terribly disappointed, but learned to deal with it. How? Together we had several conversations about how she didn't really showcase her management talents in the other jobs she was given, and how she isn't terribly interested in working with others. I pointed out that the job she was given, even though it's not terribly flashy and cool, was perfect for her talents. She got over herself, and put 100% into her job. The admin actually really admired how well she did, and the way she conducted herself got her a lot of recognition and praise.
Another one of my girls is the super savvy creative popular type. She went to a new school where she knew almost no one, and immediately set out to establish herself as super capable and a leader. She volunteered for everything out there from day one, even the scutwork type tasks, like staying late to put together pamphlets and mailings, clean up, set up, etc. She is a self-starter and doesn't need more than the minimal instructions to get a job done well. When she hit 12th grade, she got a top concert job and people in the school were stunned, because kids who come in from other schools almost never do. She also got to go to convention, which shocked even some teachers, because she wasn't from the list of legacy families that usually do. I think she sort of understood the system and played it really well.
Another went to a small OOT school. She had a major job every single year because there aren't so many girls to go around. She still managed to have complaints about it, though, so it goes to show that some people will never be happy  .
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
PinkFridge
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:53 am
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | Amother smokey, yes it is only fair that if your DD was main part in the 9th grade play, she should not get main part or a major job for the rest of high school. The school is big enough to give everyone a chance. This means that they're giving main jobs to the same girls.
As I said, you cannot understand the unfairness because your girls are the popular ones with the good jobs. |
So it's all over for her in 9th grade?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Bronze
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:56 am
| BatyaEsther wrote: | Can someone please explain to me what these jobs are, why the girls want them and how not getting one destroys their life ?
(Genuine question- does it destroy their life because it impacts shidduchim? Their sense of self-esteem? Or their ability to get into school, Future jobs and parnassa?)
In my school, GO was elected by the student body, and of course a popularity contest, but everything else was a sign-up committee and you work your way up. Your book editor was the person who volunteered freshman year and work every year on the yearbook, head of the chessed committee was the senior who has been on the committee since freshmen year and always showed up and when the extra mile to put in legwork. Plays /dance had auditions. ....
Thank you |
We're talking about anything from head of play/production, G.O., and main part, to head of dance and yearbook editor, to anything that allows girls to showcase their talents in high school. Basically any extracurricular position, formal or informal, that a girl would want.
Nope, it rarely has to do with shidduchim. Only truly shallow people care if their future DIL was head of play or G.O. It doesn't affect future parnasa. Self-esteem is where it hits. And for a teenager, that's a low blow.
Lucky you that your school had a system for freshmen and sophomores to get involved if they wanted to. My school still has no such thing. You are literally at the mercy of whom you know and how popular you are.
And in terms of auditions -- sure, there are auditions, but it doesn't mean that the same girls should get the top parts every year. In BYA, if you get a top part in the play in 9th grade, you're set for the whole high school. If you don't, good luck to you in ever getting more than a minor part. Also, even for those chosen in 9th grade -- it's often the girls who know someone. Why, when I go to their productions now, do I see the same last names as when I was in high school, over and over again? Does talent just run in certain families with specific last names -- and coincidentally, those last names happen to be big-money names which decorate the walls of a certain nearby yeshiva?
Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
|
amother
Violet
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 8:56 am
Pinkfridge, yes, she had her chance to shine and be main part. Its only fair to give other girls a chance. There's no excuse for the same girls getting main jobs throughout high school. Once main part in 9th grade is better than no nothing throughout high school.
She may have a chance in camp as well.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
|
amother
Apricot
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 9:30 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | So it's all over for her in 9th grade? |
If its all or nothing, then yes I guess its all over for her. Orrrr she can learn to be a team player and take a supporting role. Why should she sit out just because she didnt get the lead?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
14
|
PinkFridge
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 10:47 am
| amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | | If its all or nothing, then yes I guess its all over for her. Orrrr she can learn to be a team player and take a supporting role. Why should she sit out just because she didnt get the lead? |
I agree, and yet something doesn't sit right to me about such a rigid policy. I need to think this through.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Rose
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 11:30 am
What was interesting to me when I was in HS was that the girls who got the big jobs, such as GO, Chessed, play heads, main parts, had to also be bright and good students. The school didn't want to run the risk of someone being involved in extra-curricular activities and slipping behind in schoolwork.
So it was less "giving girls who don't shine in school a way to shine" and more "giving girls who already shine in school a way to shine again," which is a nice idea but then what happens to the girls who really don't shine at all in school?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
9
|
|
amother
Violet
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 11:33 am
|
Amother rose, not everyone is smart or brilliant. A girl can be a great girl with super middos and not be smart. So because a girl is not smart and does not shine with her school work she shouldn't be given a chance to shine in a different area?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
|
amother
Bronze
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 11:36 am
| amother [ Rose ] wrote: | What was interesting to me when I was in HS was that the girls who got the big jobs, such as GO, Chessed, play heads, main parts, had to also be bright and good students. The school didn't want to run the risk of someone being involved in extra-curricular activities and slipping behind in schoolwork.
So it was less "giving girls who don't shine in school a way to shine" and more "giving girls who already shine in school a way to shine again," which is a nice idea but then what happens to the girls who really don't shine at all in school? |
That was my school, as well. I heard that when I was in 11th grade, the G.O. decision came down to 2 girls, one who had a 98 average and the other a 96. They chose the girl with the 98 average for that reason. That was beyond ridiculous.
Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
7
|
Chayalle
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 11:55 am
| amother [ Rose ] wrote: | What was interesting to me when I was in HS was that the girls who got the big jobs, such as GO, Chessed, play heads, main parts, had to also be bright and good students. The school didn't want to run the risk of someone being involved in extra-curricular activities and slipping behind in schoolwork.
So it was less "giving girls who don't shine in school a way to shine" and more "giving girls who already shine in school a way to shine again," which is a nice idea but then what happens to the girls who really don't shine at all in school? |
My high school was also like this for the major jobs. I thought then, and still think, that it's ridiculous. If a girl isn't blessed with academic abilities but has a gorgeous voice, let her be choir head! Let her feel good about herself in some way!
(DD's high school definitely does things differently. There are quite a few heads for each job - for example, instead of having 2 dance heads for 4 dances, they will have a few dance heads per dance - according to girls who are able and willing. It gives so many more girls the opportunity to participate and put their creativity to the test.)
At the same time, I agree with smileoforamile that those of us who are strong academically tend to get lumped into some sort of "genius" corner where that's all we count for. I'm not discounting the blessing of having an easier time at acing tests, but as a teen, I felt that it excluded me from the social scene to such a big extent. In my high school, being yearbook editor was pretty much a thankless job that no one wanted, (I know it might not be that way in other schools) and that's pretty much what my senior year looked like for me - no role in production, nothing to do with the various Chagigas, school Shabbos, Rosh Chodes activities, etc...while all my friends were having fun on the various extra-curricular stuff, I was told to be happy that I get to have extra writing assignments called yearbook. Yay!
I liked what another poster wrote about developing resilience and growing into herself despite not getting those coveted jobs. I think this might be true for me as well. I may not have had so many social opportunities in high school and I was that awkward nerdy teen you might want to get to study with you come test time, but forgot about when midwinter vacation plans were underway. However, it hasn't kept me from developing myself as an adult. As a mother with daughters that don't necessarily take after me (in fact, they don't, not at all, oh well) I try to give them a window into what other girls' lives may look like on the inside, and I try to encourage them to develop empathy. I'm proud of them when they include other girls, and realize and appreciate what these other girls bring to the table that might have been overlooked.
I also tell them that you never know why another girl was given a role that you thought you deserved. One summer my youngest DD, who is quite the drama queen, was upset that she did not get a star role in the camp play. She got a good enough supporting role, but not the dream part, which went to another camper whom DD insisted was not as good an actress as she, etc...(insert full drama scene here, I'm not going back to camp, I won't be any part in the play, etc...) I told her that for whatever reason, Hashem knows that camper needs that part, and you will do your best in the part you were given. In then end, she really did her supporting role well (and earned quite a few compliments along the way.) Just after the summer, we heard the tragic news that the other camper lost a parent, who had been really ill. DD felt really bad, and told me that she realizes the camp likely knew the family situation, and she was glad the girl had the opportunity for some joy that summer.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
8
|
|
amother
Rose
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 11:56 am
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | | Amother rose, not everyone is smart or brilliant. A girl can be a great girl with super middos and not be smart. So because a girl is not smart and does not shine with her school work she shouldn't be given a chance to shine in a different area? |
It's unclear to me why you thought I was defending my HS's decision.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Ivory
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 9:03 pm
I didn't get any real jobs in high school. I remember how before they announced convention I literally went through the whole grade list and thinking what everyone got and assuming this time it just has to be me. It wasn't. It was the GO girls (of course, they work so hard they deserved to go) the girls who were used again and again. I thought I would never get over the rejection. I did (maybe a little part of me didn't if I still remember over 20 years later:) and life goes on.
I don't like to brag, but Hashem blessed me with amazing organizational skills. I run the PTA in my daughter's school and pull off a few big affairs every year. I organize family shabbatons and different community organizations. I daresay had the school gone out on a limb and pick a average, 80 student to head something- even something small like a 10th grade melave malka, they would have been pleasantly surprised. They would have given me a healthy dose of self esteem. Don't worry so much that the average girls can't pull it off. A lot of them have more grit than you think.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
8
|
|
amother
Royalblue
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 9:27 pm
|
The academic requirement for being a head of a major project is often an unfortunate technicality: these girls miss a lot of class and study time, and need to be able to do that without suffering too much academically. (The 98 vs 96 thing is ridiculous.) What would some practical suggestions be to deal with this problem?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
EMEN
|
Wed, May 22 2019, 9:44 pm
I don't think any of this is really about the 'jobs'. It's about the recognition that everybody is craving in high school. If the students felt respected and recognized in other ways by their teachers then they wouldn't have so many complaints about jobs.
I have friends that were GO and still felt like they weren't recognized. I have friends that were main part in play and felt unrecognized. They didn't feel like the teachers KNEW who they were.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
5
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
