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I'm Frummer than your Frum
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 9:11 pm
What is wrong with all of us?

Most recently reading the short skirt thread, but really most of them. Whether it is high heels (anyone remember that one), head coverings, BC, Pesach plans, newlyweds eating by parents, the surrendered wife....
The attacks here are vicious.
People say they are struggling with a Halacha and instead of getting chizuk they get attacked. Women seek advice for dealing with a child or Parent and instead of being given helpful advice they are criticized and insulted.

Can we be nice and respectful of each other and our differences?
Does someone having an opinion or holding by a psack different than yours threaten you?
Can we support each other. The rest of the world hates us, but can we at least have each others backs?

I would say guys come on, that it is sfira, but no need for an excuse. We should all always be nice.
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Frumwithallergies




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 9:16 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
What is wrong with all of us?

Most recently reading the short skirt thread, but really most of them. Whether it is high heels (anyone remember that one), head coverings, BC, Pesach plans, newlyweds eating by parents, the surrendered wife....
The attacks here are vicious.
People say they are struggling with a Halacha and instead of getting chizuk they get attacked. Women seek advice for dealing with a child or Parent and instead of being given helpful advice they are criticized and insulted.

Can we be nice and respectful of each other and our differences?
Does someone having an opinion or holding by a psack different than yours threaten you?
Can we support each other. The rest of the world hates us, but can we at least have each others backs?

I would say guys come on, that it is sfira, but no need for an excuse. We should all always be nice.



Well said! I agree wholeheartedly!
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aricelli




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 9:46 pm
Thanks for the reminder.
We also need to remember that when people write its possible to misunderstand. Sometimes I may be rude but I’ve had times where I really really meant well and had people getting angry at me so I guess this is a reminder for all of us- to say- can you please explain yourself instead of: you imbecile!
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 9:51 pm
Bravo OP!

One year at Purim I wore my regular sheitel, with a shorter blonde sheitel on top, and a hat on top of that. I went around yelling "I'm frummer than you are. I TRIPLE COVER!"

Then someone pointed out to me that blonde is not a tznius color, and only medium and dark brown colors are acceptable. LOL
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abaker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 10:09 pm
Totally agree. And how applicable in the spirit of lag b omer we should strengthen our ahavas yisroel and respect eachother even if their derech is not exactly the same as ours, chances are another frum yid is doing things correctly according to their rav, and/or trying the best they can do at this point in their life, and are on an upward spiritual journey. So lets all focus on strengthening
our mitzvos bein Adam lchaveiro rather than criticizing. Thanks for the reminder OP.
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Layla2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 10:11 pm
Being a chilled person by nature I dont usually lash out at others. Recently, while going though a medical crisis, I got a business call with news I didnt necessarily wanna hear, and I went off on a rant like never before in my life. I felt so silly afterward, but you know what...it opened my mind to understanding other ppl who are quick to judge, yell, and protest for no apparent reason. Most of them scream from their very own pain n we all get a chance to be the recipients of their life steuggles...
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:00 pm
Op. I agree with you about giving support rather than bashing.
However, since you mentioned the short skirt thread - which is one I followed (I rarely follow these kind of threads) allow me to say this:
When someone mentions that that have a difficulty following tznius guidelines and they genuinely try to understand the reason, or find a solution - then I'm all for supporting.
However, sometimes people who have a challenge with an aspect of yiddishkeit engage in what's known as cognitive dissonance. That means they really believe one way, but act another. In order to reconcile the two they begin justifying their actions. Sometimes this is done by denying that this is even an issue, questioning the whole concept, insinuating that rabanim are out to get us and make life harder for us by making up stringencies. Did these people ever actually do some research, speak to a rav, learn the relevant topic or are they simply voicing their frustration by ranting on an online forum?
We all struggle with one thing or another and we should support each other and help each other. But when people arrogantly devalue and demean what was held dear for generations based on personal frustration and what they think is true - then they need to be told off.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:08 pm
Agree 100%!

What's often neglected is respecting the other way around also. If someone expresses that they're having a hard time with their standard or tznius or their large family size or the balance of their husbands daily learning, it's unfair to tell them that what they're doing isn't really halacha anyway so if they can't handle the sacrifice then they should drop it. Often the attitude is, if I don't think that's worthy of mesirus nefesh then it must not be, when really you have no right to decide that. So when a woman posts her struggle and asks for support in that area, she shouldn't be yelled at to drop it but be supported in making it work for her.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:13 pm
I agree with you 100% OP.
At the same time, I do understand some of the comments.
I hope I can explain this in a way that makes sense....
I'm BT. I became frum in a community where everyone was of the same hashkafa. There was a high level of tznius, kashrus, etc., etc.
There were always some people who didn't quite do it all at the same level. But there was kind of an attitude of "I know I shouldn't really be doing this, but this is the level I'm at right now. G-d willing I'll get to a place where I can do better."
Then I moved to a MO community. I genuinely didn't know there were so many women who don't cover their hair, wear pants, men who don't wear tzitzis, wear shorts out, etc. and they are less strict in kashrus, etc. but they are absolutely serious shomer shabbos Jews. AND they are not feeling like this is a step towards higher level yiddishkeit. This is their yiddishkeit. This is what their rabbis tell them is 100% acceptable. 100% following halacha. I get it now, but it took some getting used to.
It could be that there are many women here who grew up in very right wing and sheltered communities and they are simply confused by short skirts, long sheitels, 6" heels.... whatever it is.... and they are trying to make sense of how this is frumkeit.
Granted, ahavas yisroel should be #1 priority and there is a nice way to speak and to ask questions without attacking anyone.
Anyhow.... just some thoughts on the subject and I hope I explained myself well and didn't offend anyone.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:13 pm
amother [ Khaki ] wrote:
Agree 100%!

What's often neglected is respecting the other way around also. If someone expresses that they're having a hard time with their standard or tznius or their large family size or the balance of their husbands daily learning, it's unfair to tell them that what they're doing isn't really halacha anyway so if they can't handle the sacrifice then they should drop it. Often the attitude is, if I don't think that's worthy of mesirus nefesh then it must not be, when really you have no right to decide that. So when a woman posts her struggle and asks for support in that area, she shouldn't be yelled at to drop it but be supported in making it work for her.

How true. I think we've become so good at being "non-judgemental" and "understanding" that we've taken it out of context. We have to remember that as frum Jews, we have a higher purpose. Even when discussing difficulties - keep our status in mind.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 11:15 pm
OP I love what you said.. and just to add.. something I've noticed recently is the phrase:

"I thought this website was for frum women?"

That is one of the most insulting questions, exactly got the reasons you said.

Can we just stop asking that question?

If you have a valid reason to suspect that bring it up with the mods/Yael... Don't potentially embarrass someone
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:17 am
amother [ Khaki ] wrote:
Agree 100%!

What's often neglected is respecting the other way around also. If someone expresses that they're having a hard time with their standard or tznius or their large family size or the balance of their husbands daily learning, it's unfair to tell them that what they're doing isn't really halacha anyway so if they can't handle the sacrifice then they should drop it. Often the attitude is, if I don't think that's worthy of mesirus nefesh then it must not be, when really you have no right to decide that. So when a woman posts her struggle and asks for support in that area, she shouldn't be yelled at to drop it but be supported in making it work for her.


Yes and no. It's important to encourage people and not berate them for having a hard time. It's also important to know the difference between halacha and a social norm. Sometimes it's tough to keep halacha but you have to grin and bear it, because we are ovdei Hashem. You don't have to suffer for something that - even according to rabbis of your derech - is only a social expectation.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:36 am
amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:
Yes and no. It's important to encourage people and not berate them for having a hard time. It's also important to know the difference between halacha and a social norm. Sometimes it's tough to keep halacha but you have to grin and bear it, because we are ovdei Hashem. You don't have to suffer for something that - even according to rabbis of your derech - is only a social expectation.


If you’re gonna be a flirt, ok. But don’t be proud and boast about it.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:40 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
If you’re gonna be a flirt, ok. But don’t be proud and boast about it.


I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:43 am
amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean.


Not referring to you. Was replying to your post about social normals and against Halacha. Some posters were recently saying that they flirt and that’s ok.

It’s not okay.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:46 am
What Ive observed is that theres some names that do the criticizing over and over, and then they get defended by some others here, for the criticizing.
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amother
Teal


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:47 am
amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:
Yes and no. It's important to encourage people and not berate them for having a hard time. It's also important to know the difference between halacha and a social norm. Sometimes it's tough to keep halacha but you have to grin and bear it, because we are ovdei Hashem. You don't have to suffer for something that - even according to rabbis of your derech - is only a social expectation.


Can you please explain what you mean? I've never seen a social norm being discussed here - what am I missing?
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 1:23 am
I hope I haven't sounded judgmental - I really do try to be dlkz. When I ask why a person is struggling with a halacha or a chumra that they feel pressured to follow, it is either to try to understand their difficulty and come up with solutions or in order to relate it to struggles I am having. Sometimes once one poster says something harsh, others are too quick to respond in kind and the whole tone deteriorates from there.

As for the comment "I thought this website was for frum women?" - I have seen it where a person posts something that is clearly against halacha - iow, this is not an appropriate comment on a frum site.
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 1:43 am
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
Op. I agree with you about giving support rather than bashing.
However, since you mentioned the short skirt thread - which is one I followed (I rarely follow these kind of threads) allow me to say this:
When someone mentions that that have a difficulty following tznius guidelines and they genuinely try to understand the reason, or find a solution - then I'm all for supporting.
However, sometimes people who have a challenge with an aspect of yiddishkeit engage in what's known as cognitive dissonance. That means they really believe one way, but act another. In order to reconcile the two they begin justifying their actions. Sometimes this is done by denying that this is even an issue, questioning the whole concept, insinuating that rabanim are out to get us and make life harder for us by making up stringencies. Did these people ever actually do some research, speak to a rav, learn the relevant topic or are they simply voicing their frustration by ranting on an online forum?
We all struggle with one thing or another and we should support each other and help each other. But when people arrogantly devalue and demean what was held dear for generations based on personal frustration and what they think is true - then they need to be told off.


This exactly.
It's one thing to struggle with a mitzvah. There's no shame in saying "I'm not there yet" or "I'm not ready to take it upon myself to do X"
HOWEVER twisting halacha to make a miniskirt kosher or early abortion "no big deal" is a lie and needs to be called out. The more we hear such skewed views, the more normalized they become. And that's a problem.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 2:05 am
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
Can you please explain what you mean? I've never seen a social norm being discussed here - what am I missing?


Newlyweds eating at their parents is a social norm. Eating kosher food (of whatever standard) is halacha.

Learning in kollel is a social norm in some circles. There's no halacha requiring it. So if it's something that you value, great. If it's not, fine, there are many paths to avodas Hashem.

Wearing clothing that cover certain parts of your body is halacha. (Which parts vary, depending on your circles.) Wearing only black is a social norm. There's no halacha forbidding cowboy boots, but they aren't worn in some cirlcles.

Now, someone may want to keep to the norms of her society, and that's perfectly understandable. If she wants to do that (and it's not harming her in any way), we should help her. What's not ok is pretending that these requirements are halacha.
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