Moral dilemma. Advise plz

amother

Sun, May 26 2019, 10:01 am

I have an aunt around 70 years old who was recently diagnosed with a cancer that is usually fatal within a few years. This aunt is an odd person, never been married, and basically no friends. I'm closer to her than anyone else. She told me she is ONLY taking over the counter vitamins from the pharmacy to treat her illness. She told the oncologist that chemotherapy only destroys everything, including her vitamins she's taking and she won't take chemo. My dilemma is that in all likelihood this disease will be fatal. If I try to persuade her to take chemo then in a few months from now when she is likely sicker, she'll blame me and hold me responsible for getting worse. If I say nothing she will almost certainly start deteriorating soon. I suppose it's possible at that point she'll take chemo but her cancer will have spread somewhat already. Should I push for her to take chemo?

amother

Bisque

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:30 am

I can't say for sure but I think that she probably knows deep down that this is fatal and doesn't want to ruin the last years of her life with treatments that won't work. I don't think that's what I would do, but I certainly understand her actions.

FranticFrummie

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:35 am

Her body, her choice. If she were your minor child, you could make medical decisions for her. Since she's considered a competent adult, you don't get a say in this.

All you can do is support her, ask her what she needs, and be a listening ear.

amother

Aqua

Sun, May 26 2019, 11:38 am

The big question here is she of sane mind and fully capable of understanding drs and treatment options
Maybe offer to go to the next appointment with her and ask some questions together with her if that’s what she wants
It is possible that she made this clear decision with all the cards on the table and feels this is the way she wants her last few months to be
You can’t make a decision for her, just make sure she understands her options well

amother

Navy

Sun, Jun 02 2019, 9:43 pm

OP, if she's the type to believe in vitamins etc she may want to try Haelan. It's a fermented soy drink that mitigates the effects of chemo. My mother had a course of chemo when she was close to 80 and was never even hospitalized. (There are also studies that show it helping in patients where chemo didn't work at all.)

southernbubby

Sun, Jun 02 2019, 11:12 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

I think that you should have her speak to the MD and be honest with him, but ultimately, if she is of sound mind, once she is appropriate informed, the decision is hers and hers alone, and needs to be respected.

I agree that as long as she understands the consequences, the only thing that should be done is some end of life planning. I would be concerned if she viewed the vitamins as a substitute for chemo because it indicates that she may not really understand her choices.

She needs to let someone know where her will is and who the executer is, where she wants to be buried and if she wants kadish arranged.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Jun 02 2019, 11:17 pm

I don't know the details and the chances here, or how much and how long the duration of chemo, but don't think about the blame. Think about the fact that she'd rather enjoy less time in a more peaceful way than more time under stressful treatment. I know someone in his 50s who refused treatment, afraid to prolong the pain. Very medical minded guy, didn't believe in vitamins at all, but he simply didn't want to undergo treatment for the percentage of survival he was given.
Chemo can be horrific and I understand why she wouldn't want it.

dankbar

Sun, Jun 02 2019, 11:29 pm

with the right treatment can also view miracles. If she complies with doctors, and if chas vsholom they see that the chemo is not working they might offer her other options but if she's not complying, she won't be offered any treatments

Petra

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 10:41 am

For some people, they choose against chemo completely and go towards alternative medicine. I don't blame them. Chemo is hard and for some takes away any good days that are left. Why don't you help support her to do what she wants to do. It's her life. She should be able to choose how to live it and how to die. She doesn't get a choice about the cancer but she gets a choice about how to deal with it/or not deal with it.

Amarante

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 10:54 am

It appears that she is making a rational decision - at least to her. I would assume that even if unspoken she has decided that prolonging her life with debilitating chemotherapy is not for her.

You write that the cancer is almost always fatal. The kind of cancer and prognosis is - at least to me - important in making a decision.

I think also that you need to consider her social isolation. She has no family to speak of and no close circle of friends. Going through chemotherapy is something that requires assistance. Recent studies indicate that having a strong support network whether it is friends or family seem to correlate with better survival rates.

Perhaps this is also something she is considering - who is going to take her to and from chemotherapy. Who is going to help her when she is realistically to debilitated to take care of basic needs like cooking, cleaning. Who is going to take her to doctor's appointments and other necessary stuff. Does she have enough money to purchase necessary help? Are YOU prepared to step in as her caretaker?

dankbar

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 11:02 am

it seems like she's making the decision based on that she will shortly die anyway so why go through the pain.

If her mindset can somehow change that the chemo will heal her & she go on to live many healthy years still ahead of her, she might be willing to go through the pain

ShishKabob

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 11:54 am

I think this is a pure halachic question. It's not her body, her choice. I don't think that's jewish. We can't just watch someone commit suicide and think that it's their body their choice. We can't just allow someone to overdose on drugs because it's their body their choice. Just like you won't let your good friend guzzle soda all day and night drinking like 120 oz of soda a day because it's their body, their choice, and you'd be scared to voice your opinion about how unhealthy it is.
No, we have to do the right thing even if the other person will be upset or angry at us.
I'm not saying that in this case it's considered suicide, but I think the mindset from many posters is like that. And I'm not even saying this is the case with a 70 year old women.
I am saying that I think a competent Rabbi has to be consulted as to how to go about this.
B'hatzlocha

Amarante

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 12:16 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

I don’t think there is enough medical information to know what her true medical options are.

I don’t think there is anything forcing one to undergo painful futile medical treatments that prolong life without having any quality of life.

On the other hand, maybe treatment options are viable. Unless one is in the room with the doctor and asking questions, no one knows what is true.

I don’t understand what one actually would do. Tell the woman she must have chemo Therapy?

ShishKabob

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 12:39 pm

Maybe there is a moral obligation to try to get her to lean towards medical healing. I honestly have no idea. But again, I think there's a moral obligation to ask a Rabbi that is competent in this area and then follow the guidance whatever it may be.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Jun 03 2019, 7:57 pm

Your aunt is relatively young. Tell her that they have oral pills for chemo with fewer side effects than the port with the IV. Ask her to maybe try the chemo pills first before making a decision to just abandon ship.

I disagree with all the posters above who say that chemo has terrible side effects. There are newer forms of treatment with fewer side effects. Your aunt will never know what her options are if she doesn't inquire.