Share your opinion without bashing please...

amother

Chocolate

Thu, May 30 2019, 7:54 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

This is illegal.
https://www.nydailynews.com/ne.....39120

Everyone knows it's illegal and organized. The section 8 inspectors go along with the games played like partitioning a dining room to turn it into 2 bedrooms. There is at least one company that goes around setting up the partitions the day before inspection and taking them down the day after. The inspector made a joke about how all hassidim have the same division in their dining room. He was told not to use this to not to pass inspection.

It is easy to catch landlords claiming section 8 for themselves, but no one wants to upset a voting block. Landlords must register a person with the city.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 30 2019, 7:54 am

DVOM wrote:

Ahhh… another edifying conversation about my dear hometown, Lakewood!

I’m exhausted. My boys all had stomach viruses this week, and I have scrubbed all sorts of bodily fluids out of all sorts of surfaces more times than I can count. So take the following with a healthy heaping spoonful of salt. I get very wordy when I’m this pooped (hah! Pun intended!). And I know I'm really not answering the OP's question. Sorry OP! Here are my rambling, sleep-deprived thoughts:

We too moved into a Lakewood neighborhood that seemed, at first glance, to be a good fit for us. We were young and dumb, bright eyed and bushy tailed, nerdy and naive. We were told that the crowd was 'very Frum,' mostly Kollel families. We took 'very Frum' to mean very simple, very spiritually inclined, very focused on what is really important in life, very kind, very honest, very accepting and loving and warm. Well, we though, we're very Frum too, or at least we aspire to be, if that's what Frum means. We'll fit right in!

It took a lot of heartache and the gnawing feeling of not belonging before we upped and moved. The strollers! The fancy shmancy Shabbos pajamas! The matching weekday and Shabbos outfits, matching down to the sox and hairbows and jewelry! The looooong park-bench conversations about finding the right pacifier clip! The kiddushes and bar mitzvahs with ice sculptures, masses of fresh flowers, ice cream sunday bars, dozens of teeny tiny cakes shaped like itty bitty pink ballet slippers or torahs or boys' initials! The time and effort and attention given to professionally perfect family photos, to window dressings, to kitchen appliances, to Shabbos 'tablescapes'! The looks that I got in my comfy maxi skirts and sneaks and scarves when everyone else dressed in heels and loooong wigs and designer sunglasses! Many of our new neighbors were, in fact, kind, spiritual, honest, accepting, loving and warm. I grew to call several of them close friends. But precious few were living anything close to a simple lifestyle.

I don't begrudge anyone their little or large luxuries. I don't mind if you want to buy a stroller that cost more than my family spends on food in a few months or go on vacations that cost more than we spend on food in a year. Right or wrong, I have my own luxuries that I’d like to afford, my own materialistic dreams, my own extravagant splurges.

What did (and does!) get under my skin is the tacit and sometimes not so tacit invitation that these living-large Kollel families seemed to broadcast, an invitation to the rest of us to admire them and their lifestyle, to, in fact, look up to them. I have seen families whose outsides match their insides; whose bar mitzvahs and pajamas and wigs match their dedication to Torah learning and Torah values. I truly admire these women. They’re walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

But families who are living richly while learning in Kollel seems to me like… like a friend of mine who has full-time live-in cleaning help who once told me that she ‘prides herself’ on having spotlessly clean floors. You could walk on her floors barefoot, she told me, and you toes would stay as pearly pink as if you’d just hopped out of the bath. I marveled at her perspective. She does not clean her own floors. She does not even earn the money that pays for her cleaning lady; it is funded by her wealthy dad. What exactly is she proud of? Or a couple we met who ooohed and aaaahed about the beauty of the bottom of the Grand Canyon, the majesty of the changing colors of each rock layer as you travel deeper and deeper into the earth, the towering walls high above you when you reach the bottom. We were very impressed, envious even, and asked how difficult it was to do the climb, how many days it took to accomplish it. They responded that they went in and out by helicopter. No doubt the Canyon was still beautiful, but our admiration and respect for them was gone.

I’ve always believed that hard work buys pride in one’s self, wins the respect of others. There’s no accomplishment without hard work. Kollel with a bugaboo just seems too easy to me to feel like there’s much to admire there. I know what you’re all going to say, and it’s true: each person on their own level has their own struggles, and that a stay at home Kollel wife with a huge home, a doona, two late model cars, two yearly vacations, extensive cleaning help, a healthy budget for food, clothing, toys, therapies, extracurricular activities for her kids and herself can still be sweating, sacraficing, striving, working really hard to support her husband’s Kollel learning. I know it can be true, and yet, I still have difficulty finding any respect or admiration for that Kollel lifestyle. I can admire her for many other things: her kindness, her chessed, her respect for others, her parenting, her heavenly chocolate cake recipe, her tact and sensitivity towards her neighbors, the ways she puts on makeup. But please don't ask me to admire the fact that her husband is in full time long term learning.

Oy, DVOM, how I agree with the bolded! I can't like it enough!

I agree with everyone else - why aren't you writing professionally? You have real extraordinary talent.

But I'm going to argue a tiny drop, if you don't mind. I know people who are fully supported - in style - while living in kollel. I once had a conversation with one of these women and I expressed my frustration that while we are a working family, our standard of living is the same, if not lower, than many of the kollel families. She said to me - one thing we don't have is security. I am being fully supported now, but what will happen in a few years? How will I live then? You have the peace of mind of knowing that you have your retirement funded (we do) and that you have a stable job that will be there always. We don't have that security. Reading some recent threads about families that were supported in style until suddenly the rug was pulled out from under them has hit home to me that this is indeed true. And now that I'm older and I see the kollel familes my age and older really struggling (my good friend just lost her house) I see this true even more. All that glitters is not gold.

Also, some of these women may come from homes where the standard of living was WAAAY higher than they are living now, and yes, they are sacrificing by making Pesach at home, even with their full time cleaning help.

Off the topic, but I was just thinking - I'm sure there are plenty of simpler neighborhoods in Lakewood? Like I said, the silent majority? I don't want to mention any names on this public thread, but those of you who live in Lakewood know what I am talking about (complexes)?

Mommyg8

Thu, May 30 2019, 7:57 am

simcha2 wrote:

The whole point of the kollel lifestyle, in general, is sold as the exact opposite. We don't engage in this "waste of time" activities so we can fill our time Torah. If you're filling the gap with $40 headbands and cashmere onesies might as well go watch a movie.

I have never heard that the problem with movies is that you're wasting time. Seriously.

southernbubby

Thu, May 30 2019, 7:58 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Add this post to.long list of reasons I wish I didn't join ima. Ignorance is bliss. I wish I.didnt see this

It's too upsetting

I never thought about this since im.not up to this stage. Now that I do I can't wrap my head around why EVERY kollel family deserves a reduced price to SLEEP AWAY CAMP??

Especially if they r not offering it to others who r tight financially.

Until I read this I thought it's questionable if someone getting a tuition break for kollel should feel comfortable spending on camp. I never imagined they send to camp on another discount. TMI

Eta I'm sorry if this post upsets other imas
Maybe I shouldn't b on ima so late at night ..

Those who support Torah study often do so by offering discounts on goods and services to Kollel families.
In Chabad, there are similar discounts for shluchim.
If it is being abused or causing major losses of money, then it gets discontinued.
When my kids were little, our pediatrician gave professional courtesy to physicians' families until a large contingent of his patients were physicians' families and he had to stop.
I really admire Chassidishe Rebbe's who inact takanas on their followers so that the need to engage in competitive spending decreases. Realize too that much of the parnassa in the frum community is earned selling luxuries such as the $1999 silver flower vase.
We also have to be conscious of why we buy anything. We have to ask ourselves why we need an $80 cheesecake for Shavous. Are we reacting to the ads, competing with our friends, experiencing FOMO or in our innermost hearts feel that we are properly honoring Shavous?

Mommyg8

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:03 am

southernbubby wrote:

This.

amother

Gold

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:05 am

I'm lucky that I live in a mixed neighborhood. Some women/families are fancy, but many are down to earth, even those that have money don't act in a showy way- they drive normal cars, dress comfortably, etc.
I recently told my husband that it's crazy that I, on an ordinary day in Lakewood spent shopping in town/visiting a pizza or bagel store etc, I feel frumpy and dowdy, whereas in a place like Teaneck, I feel right at home, like I blend in! We ate out in Teaneck the recently, and the women there wore casual clothing, nothing super trendy/glamorous- think jean skirt and tee. They wore simpler sheitels/headcoverings (or none, but that's not my hashkofah), such as a simple wig in a only/a straight wig/nothing too long or glamourous. They wore minimal makeup, not a full kardashian-contour face. I felt like I looked just as good as them in my nice but simple and not-purchased-in-2019 outfit, my older but decent wig, my minimal but tasteful makeup.
Whereas in Lakewood I feel like a frump next to many women just because I dress affordably (and don't renew my wardrobe every season) and tzniusdikly.
The other day a friend said, "oh, everyone is wearing this pair of shoes; it was only $110!"
I thought to myself, "wow, I wouldn't even spend that on a pair of shabbs shoes!"
I shop sales (Nordstrom rack, Century 21, 6 pm) and have found many cute, trendy shoes for well under that price...
It's just crazy that I feel so out of place...
But luckily I have confidence to do what I do, and my dh loves that I'm the way I am, so all is well ...
it's just funny that as yeshivish as I am, I felt more comfortable in Dougie's, Teaneck than Glatt Bite, Lakewood!

simcha2

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:11 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I have never heard that the problem with movies is that you're wasting time. Seriously.

The actual time and the spiritual time.

It's pretty clear that a $400 tshirt isn't tzniusdig, no matter how loose it is. It is contrary to Torah values. By replacing the movie with an emphasis on "things" you are replacing hevel for hevel. The difference is, someone who watches movies recognizes that they are exposing themselves to non Torah values, and so can guard against the influence.

amother

Khaki

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:11 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

Not strange at all. And there's a lot of money in Teaneck. But it's spent in other ways. High tuitions, tzedaka, retirement savings. I lived there for years and never had a park bench conversation about kids clothes. (I assume that such people exist , but they are one group of many. It's not the dominant culture.)

amother

Powderblue

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:18 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

So now I'm going to play devils advocate and go in the opposite direction.

I have heard from a lot of people that the reason that the RW is pushing the emphasis on better things is because they are denied everything else. In the MO world, you have movies, TV, internet, organized sports, etc etc etc etc, but in the RW world these are all frowned upon. So you have to give people SOMETHING to be busy with. This is a pshara - if I am using the word correctly - because although gashmiyus should not be a value, it becomes a substitute for other things which are denied. A frum family will spend on matching clothing for their kids, for example using the money saved from not spending on entertainment...

You are absolutely correct. Because not everyone is cut out to live a life of only pure spiritual pursuit, gashmiyus (disguised as ruchniyus because the narrative demands it) fills the void. But as simcha2 wrote- at that point if your engaging in time-wasting activities, just go watch a movie. Or at the least- acknowledge that you are wasting the time! Be self-aware enough that you this is hevel, you enjoy it, and move on, instead of trying to fold everything into a box where it doesn't fit.

(I will argue that many from my narrow community spend very little on entertainment (we don't have TV's, maybe a Netflix subscription for use on the family computer) but many others in the broader MO are spending on multiple TV's, movies, etc. Also, our incomes and educations do allow for that expenditure, as opposed to the Mishpacha's adulation of kollel on one page and the Harry Winston ads on the other.)

Also... Jewish books/novels? Uncle Moishy videos/tapes? Those are actually insanely expensive compared to the public library and $5 Sesame Street videos from Target. Not convinced that the yeshivish entertainment budget is much cheaper, just less big expenditures like TV's.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:26 am

simcha2 wrote:

I have never heard that the reason for not watching movies is because you are wasting time. Maybe that thought is out there, but I just never heard it.

I heard that the reason is because of the pritzus, and the influence of outside values.

I'm also not sure that buying nice things is not a Torah value. See what I wrote above about kedoshim tehiyu.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:29 am

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

Also... Jewish books/novels? Uncle Moishy videos/tapes? Those are actually insanely expensive compared to the public library and $5 Sesame Street videos from Target. Not convinced that the yeshivish entertainment budget is much cheaper, just less big expenditures like TV's.

Many people I know can't afford Jewish books or novels or Uncle Moishy videotapes. So they just don't buy it.

Come to think of it, personally I would rather spend on a good book than on a better headband. But that's just me.

amother

Coffee

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:42 am

what happens when yesheivish people get old. Do their children take care of them financially. I'm getting the impression that retirement funds is not as important to them? Trying to figure out why the MO world stresses retirement funds but not the yesheivish world?

I remember as a kid my mother saying that the brooklyn people might spend more on clothing but they don't spend on movies... uhm we didn't really go to the movies either but yeah, we lived on the UWS which was considered wealthy but spent way less on clothing and I don't remember ever being teased about my clothing in my MO elementary school.

I'll never forget how someone in the brooklyn school I went to for high school telling me she thought that the outfit I wore to check out the school was nerdy.

southernbubby

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:49 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Buying quality merchandise and getting your money's worth out of it is a Torah value. Buying cheap, poor quality merchandise that is rapidly discarded wastes both time and money.
Earlier generations prided themselves on buying good quality merchandise and making sure that it lasted. Every woman who sews wishes that she had Grandma's old Singer. Those never wore out.
A blogger who writes budget advice based on what the Mennonite community does says that Mennonite people buy the best quality merchandise that they can afford with the hope that it won't wear out or soon need to be replaced.

simcha2

Thu, May 30 2019, 8:54 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Maybe I didn't explain it well, the spiritual time I'm referring to, is the spiritual energy, headspace etc, not necessarily minutes and hours.

There is a difference between buying "nice things" and spending excessively. Excessive is worshipping things and idolizing gashmius. It is not tznius. You can disagree with me. But I'm responding to your post where you claim this focus on "things" is a replacement for those things that are too secular.

My point, these are equally as hevel. And in some ways worse, because they're insidious. People don't even realize the narishkeit they're bringing into their lives.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 30 2019, 9:19 am

simcha2 wrote:

I agree with every word you wrote, and if you will read my last few posts, this is exactly what I wrote. I agree it's a chaval on the spiritual energy, headspace, etc.

I was just responding to two points:

First, this is the argument that I have heard from many, that you have to give people something. If it's not movies, sports, or TV, then it should be headbands. It's not relevant whether you and I agree, it's a fact that they're saying so. How this reconciles with the ideal of husband learning in kollel is something that has me Scratching Head

.

Second is that you said that people in our world don't watch movies etc. because it's a time waster. I live in that world, I have never heard it presented that way.

What I'm saying are facts. What you and I actually think, and whether they are right or wrong, is a completely different conversation.

allthingsblue

Thu, May 30 2019, 9:28 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

It's a ridiculous argument. Just because a,b, and c are wrong doesn't mean I can do d, which is also wrong.
We aren't in school anymore. Life is full of gray shades. Things aren't all black and white. If people want to rationalize their materialism, go ahead, but it's still materialism.
(I am also tempted by materialism but not in the extreme way that is common these days- ie I'd never by anything Moncler or Ferragamo, and I'd never spend $100 on kids' shoes. Plus, I am aware of my temptations and trying to work on myself.)

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, May 30 2019, 9:34 am

southernbubby wrote:

I just buy cheap and hope it lasts. Most of the time it does. If it doesn't, I buy something a little more expensive, and it usually does last. Maybe I just have lower standards about what is considered lasting.

Chayalle

Thu, May 30 2019, 9:52 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

I did, this is my first time dealing with sleep away camp. I was told to try asking next year but for this year if we want our spot we have to pay the full price. It upsets me because I heard the kollel discount is given without question, but why can't my daughter have that money in her bank account when to the camp it's such a small amount that they give it in the form of a discount for others?

I don't know which camp you are dealing with, but I can tell you that when my girls went to camp, there was no automatic discount just because DH is in Kollel. I had to fill out a whole form and speak to them and really advocate for a discount, after which I paid the same amount as a friend whose husband was not in Kollel.

I also paid more $ in tuition one year per child than my non-Kollel sibling.

leah233

Thu, May 30 2019, 10:01 am

A lot of this conversation is based on where in Lakewood you live.

I live in the largest housing developments in Lakewood(Westgate). The population there equals or is bigger than the frum population of the entire Detroit. With all the complaints people have about Westgate, people living there being materialistic is certainly NOT one of them.

In a general sense based on my experience Yeshivish people fall into one of four categories

(1)Absolute Tzadikim and Tzidkonyis whose lives are almost exclusively motived by right vs. wrong. They are looking to do what Hashem wants and whatever is right under the circumstances no matter what the sacrifice required is. If this is the right way to act or live they will do it. No if and or buts

(2)wannabe (1) but they aren't at that level

(3)people who are ambivalent. On the one hand they respect and identify with the values and ideals of group (1) On the other hand there are other things that speak to them too. Plus their life experience has frequently shown them that they have no realistic ability of being exclusively in group (1) for the time being

(4)People who grew up Yeshivish but wish they didn't. They are frequently bitter and cynical towards the ideals of the Yeshivish world. Like any system or society the Yeshivish world has its shares of downsides and situation where the ideals don't match the reality . These people love to focus on those situations in a non constructive manner .

I'm very over generalizing with the above.

Chayalle

Thu, May 30 2019, 10:05 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Yeah, a relative of mine once gave me this whole shpiel in a similar vein. I don't buy it.

My girls go to a high school in Lakewood that is known for less peer pressure. There are kids who are from more wealthy homes, there are kids from simple Kollel homes. No one cares what brand watch you are wearing, or whether your briefcase is from a particular designer (though you will get compliments if you found something that looks cute and cheerful. It can cost $20 in the mall.)

A relative of mine sent her daughter to a high school that overall has a reputation as being more frum than the one my girls went to. Her husband learns long-term, and they live a relatively simple lifestyle. But in high school, her daughter started "needing" things, and she told me that you have to give these things, like a designer watch, or an expensive briefcase, and I don't even recall her exact argument, but somehow this all jived with all these girls being top girls who go to the best seminaries and then come home and become teachers - her daughter included.

I don't see how any of this makes our children healthier or happier or frummer. Sorry. Not convinced.

I'm for a certain level of gashmiyus though. My husband learns, does that mean my kids are the Karbanos? No torn or stained clothing for me. I once met an acquaintance on Shabbos, and her toddler had grapejuice and chulent stains all over his clothes. I would never take my child out like that - I would change his outfit. She told me that doing that is for me, not for him, because he doesn't know the difference at his age. I disagree. I ingrain in my kids from when they are little that they are important, that they have self-respect - it doesn't have to manifest itself in designer clothes, but scrubbed hands and faces, clean clothes, and brushed hair make a difference in how a child comes to view him/herself when they grow up. It starts when they are babies. Fresh, clean, etc....