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-> Inquiries & Offers
-> Lakewood, Toms River & Jackson related Inquiries
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amother
Powderblue
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 Thu, May 30 2019, 12:06 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Why not hobbies, activities, chesed, lots of meaningful way to fill time? For the boys I would add sports with good guidelines. |
Or chess for the boys? For the life of me, I can't understand why yeshivish boys aren't allowed to play chess as a relaxing pursuit.
Playing organized sports makes some sense to me, because from there you go into unhealthy competition, following professional sports, etc.
What are boys going to do if they enjoy chess? Obsess how Bobby Fischer trounced Boris Spassky?
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amother
Vermilion
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Thu, May 30 2019, 12:16 pm
| amother [ Powderblue ] wrote: | Or chess for the boys? For the life of me, I can't understand why yeshivish boys aren't allowed to play chess as a relaxing pursuit.
Playing organized sports makes some sense to me, because from there you go into unhealthy competition, following professional sports, etc.
What are boys going to do if they enjoy chess? Obsess how Bobby Fischer trounced Boris Spassky? |
Who doesn’t let the boys play chess?
My boys in Lakewood play organized baseball on fridays and hockey on Sunday evenings.
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keym
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Thu, May 30 2019, 12:23 pm
| amother [ Powderblue ] wrote: | Or chess for the boys? For the life of me, I can't understand why yeshivish boys aren't allowed to play chess as a relaxing pursuit.
Playing organized sports makes some sense to me, because from there you go into unhealthy competition, following professional sports, etc.
What are boys going to do if they enjoy chess? Obsess how Bobby Fischer trounced Boris Spassky? |
My boys in a fairly yeshivish school play chess with each other and their rebbes/English teachers by recess all winter long.
Now the weather is nice, recess is football, basketball, or volleyball.
Where are boys discouraged from playing chess?
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chicco
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Thu, May 30 2019, 12:34 pm
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If they can't play chess, what are they supposed to do on Nittle Nacht?
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Chayalle
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Thu, May 30 2019, 1:19 pm
| amother [ Powderblue ] wrote: | Or chess for the boys? For the life of me, I can't understand why yeshivish boys aren't allowed to play chess as a relaxing pursuit.
Playing organized sports makes some sense to me, because from there you go into unhealthy competition, following professional sports, etc.
What are boys going to do if they enjoy chess? Obsess how Bobby Fischer trounced Boris Spassky? |
I know my father belonged to the chess club in Torah Vdaas in his day....few people can beat him at chess. One of my BIL's once tied with him - it was a very high point in the family, we were cheering like crazy. I gotta ask that BIL where he learned chess, but I presume he got practice in the yeshivos he attended. He's pretty young, too, so it would be recent.
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Chayalle
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Thu, May 30 2019, 1:20 pm
| keym wrote: | My boys in a fairly yeshivish school play chess with each other and their rebbes/English teachers by recess all winter long.
Now the weather is nice, recess is football, basketball, or volleyball.
Where are boys discouraged from playing chess? |
And my girls were noticing the number of basket ball hoops up by many of the newer Yeshiva buildings. They think the girls' school could follow suit.
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mig100
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Thu, May 30 2019, 2:44 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | Yeah, a relative of mine once gave me this whole shpiel in a similar vein. I don't buy it.
My girls go to a high school in Lakewood that is known for less peer pressure. There are kids who are from more wealthy homes, there are kids from simple Kollel homes. No one cares what brand watch you are wearing, or whether your briefcase is from a particular designer (though you will get compliments if you found something that looks cute and cheerful. It can cost $20 in the mall.)
A relative of mine sent her daughter to a high school that overall has a reputation as being more frum than the one my girls went to. Her husband learns long-term, and they live a relatively simple lifestyle. But in high school, her daughter started "needing" things, and she told me that you have to give these things, like a designer watch, or an expensive briefcase, and I don't even recall her exact argument, but somehow this all jived with all these girls being top girls who go to the best seminaries and then come home and become teachers - her daughter included.
I don't see how any of this makes our children healthier or happier or frummer. Sorry. Not convinced.
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I'm not convinced either though I would be rather curious to hear her arguments.
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amother
Wheat
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Thu, May 30 2019, 3:12 pm
| amother [ Aubergine ] wrote: | | Another vote from me to meet up with DVOM one day so I can shake her hand for so eloquently putting my thoughts into words. I can't explain it, I don't know what bothers me, so my neighbors parents are paying for their maids, designer clothing, wigs, etc. while I work round the clock just to pay for tuition and my groceries-why is it my business? But it's hard to ignore when the standards of living are being raised -my high schooler asked to go to sleep away camp this year, I explained she'd have to put aside her birthday money and babysitting money to help pay for it, plus she's working first half in order to earn herself spending money. So far she's earned $800. Come to find out her friend pays $800 less than we do simply because they're a kollel family, she doesn't have to put money towards her camp costs. I'm so mad, why can't camps and schools look into money backgrounds and not just hear, oh they're a kollel family so we need to give them a discount with no questions asked. The kollel friends from her class that are going to sleep away camp ALL live in brand new houses double our size, not a single mother works, multiple vacations, designer clothing, every single one has cleaning help-don't tell me it's none of my business when camps and schools are making it my business by making it as if they need the discount when they say 'kollel family' while I'm stuck paying full price with zero leeway. |
I think a good takeaway is that life isn't actually "fair". We don't live in a communist society where every item is doled out equally to the masses. (In theory).
How about really rich people? They put their businesses on their credit cards, so the credit card rewards them with free tickets to everywhere they want to go. Did they deserve it? Not really. Do struggling middle class families need those free tickets more? Yes.
Camps and schools and businesses make all sorts of calculations on who they want to let "join", who they want to keep as patrons, etc. And often, it's not fair to those squeezed in the middle.
But this should not take away your daughter's accomplishment!! Instead of having her look at her friend and what her friend got, for nothing, for the accomplishments of someone else, for being treated as somehow special even though she didn't do anything for it, that does not last as long as paying for camp yourself.
I grew up in a struggling household. My parents lost their jobs and there was no money for camp. Instead, my parents phrased everything as "good for my resume", and praised my ambition when I worked during my summers. I got to spend my money as I saw fit, and I found others around me who also didn't go away to sleepaway camp. I don't look back and feel deprived at all. I feel proud.
Let's let go of fairness and unfairness. The camp directors decided they like train builders over storekeepers and they gave one group a discount. Ignore the specifics. It all depends how you phrase things, and teaching your child to look at someone else's test paper is the fast track to unhappiness.
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naturalmom5
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Thu, May 30 2019, 5:44 pm
| amother [ Wheat ] wrote: | I think a good takeaway is that life isn't actually "fair". We don't live in a communist society where every item is doled out equally to the masses. (In theory).
How about really rich people? They put their businesses on their credit cards, so the credit card rewards them with free tickets to everywhere they want to go. Did they deserve it? Not really. Do struggling middle class families need those free tickets more? Yes.
Camps and schools and businesses make all sorts of calculations on who they want to let "join", who they want to keep as patrons, etc. And often, it's not fair to those squeezed in the middle.
But this should not take away your daughter's accomplishment!! Instead of having her look at her friend and what her friend got, for nothing, for the accomplishments of someone else, for being treated as somehow special even though she didn't do anything for it, that does not last as long as paying for camp yourself.
I grew up in a struggling household. My parents lost their jobs and there was no money for camp. Instead, my parents phrased everything as "good for my resume", and praised my ambition when I worked during my summers. I got to spend my money as I saw fit, and I found others around me who also didn't go away to sleepaway camp. I don't look back and feel deprived at all. I feel proud.
Let's let go of fairness and unfairness. The camp directors decided they like train builders over storekeepers and they gave one group a discount. Ignore the specifics. It all depends how you phrase things, and teaching your child to look at someone else's test paper is the fast track to unhappiness. |
WOW!!!!!!!
You should run for office
You're good.. 
You're not a freier ..you're an ACHIEVER
pssst.... You're a freier
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Mommyg8
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Thu, May 30 2019, 7:42 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Why not hobbies, activities, chesed, lots of meaningful way to fill time? For the boys I would add sports with good guidelines. |
It's not an issue of looking to fill time (and yes, chess and some sports is definitely allowed for those who are interested), it's about telling kids - you can't do x, y, z, and b but to make things up to you I'll buy you a nice shirt. Or... you have to learn hard but then I'll send you to a great camp. There is so much pressure on kids these days and it's such a hard world for them to be growing up in (spiritually) that this seems to be a way to say to them - here, splurge on something that's allowed.
When you put it that way I sorta see the point...
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PinkFridge
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Thu, May 30 2019, 8:25 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | It's not an issue of looking to fill time (and yes, chess and some sports is definitely allowed for those who are interested), it's about telling kids - you can't do x, y, z, and b but to make things up to you I'll buy you a nice shirt. Or... you have to learn hard but then I'll send you to a great camp. There is so much pressure on kids these days and it's such a hard world for them to be growing up in (spiritually) that this seems to be a way to say to them - here, splurge on something that's allowed.
When you put it that way I see the point... |
In a way it is. Parents are telling your kids, since you're being moser nefesh not to do xyz to fill your spare time, I'll make it up to you with the thing you want a lot.
And re "splurge on something that's allowed," some of these splurges might border on naval b'r'shus haTorah....
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amother
Aubergine
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Thu, May 30 2019, 8:49 pm
| amother [ Wheat ] wrote: | I think a good takeaway is that life isn't actually "fair". We don't live in a communist society where every item is doled out equally to the masses. (In theory).
How about really rich people? They put their businesses on their credit cards, so the credit card rewards them with free tickets to everywhere they want to go. Did they deserve it? Not really. Do struggling middle class families need those free tickets more? Yes.
Camps and schools and businesses make all sorts of calculations on who they want to let "join", who they want to keep as patrons, etc. And often, it's not fair to those squeezed in the middle.
But this should not take away your daughter's accomplishment!! Instead of having her look at her friend and what her friend got, for nothing, for the accomplishments of someone else, for being treated as somehow special even though she didn't do anything for it, that does not last as long as paying for camp yourself.
I grew up in a struggling household. My parents lost their jobs and there was no money for camp. Instead, my parents phrased everything as "good for my resume", and praised my ambition when I worked during my summers. I got to spend my money as I saw fit, and I found others around me who also didn't go away to sleepaway camp. I don't look back and feel deprived at all. I feel proud.
Let's let go of fairness and unfairness. The camp directors decided they like train builders over storekeepers and they gave one group a discount. Ignore the specifics. It all depends how you phrase things, and teaching your child to look at someone else's test paper is the fast track to unhappiness. |
But this is what bothers me. She'll outright tell me not to buy her something, she's the most understanding child and sees how hard I work and always asks if there's something she can do around the house to help. Now she's asked for something because out of her circle of 12 friends, she would be the only one not going. I don't believe it builds character to deny her that and have her listen to all her friends finally coming home only to talk about their camp memories, I believe it builds resentment. But how are all her friends going? Why was this bar set high? Because the camp makes it easier for them, they're kollel families and get an automatic discount. Making it easier for one group puts the pressure on the rest of us. And if they needed that discount then I wouldn't begrudge it, but giving these people a discount only gives them more pocket money to spend on designer bags, multiple vacations, bigger renovations, etc and I'm tired of hearing that I don't know anyone else's financial situation-the gashmiyus is laid out lavishly for everyone to behold. And then there's my own daughter who had a long day in school and planned on studying over the phone tonight but then got a call to go babysit for three hours and asked me what to do because she's so tired and had plans to study for finals but how could she turn it down when she has a goal of making $1000 for camp?
You know how you go to the school and there's a big plaque stating the name of one of the wealthiest families in the school who donates lots of money so the lobby is dedicated to them? You know whose name should be on the darn plaque? MINE. Because that guy's grandchildren are all kollel and go to school for free while I pay full tuition, in the long run I paid just as much as that guy but he is looked up to and honored but my money is just expected.
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amother
Coffee
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Thu, May 30 2019, 8:55 pm
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aubergine. I really feel for you, your daughter sounds like a great girl and I"yH she will go far in life, however she dreams but right now that seems so hard. Totally hear you about the plaques. we wouldn't be able to handle being the working family in a kollel world.
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simcha2
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Thu, May 30 2019, 9:32 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | It's not an issue of looking to fill time (and yes, chess and some sports is definitely allowed for those who are interested), it's about telling kids - you can't do x, y, z, and b but to make things up to you I'll buy you a nice shirt. Or... you have to learn hard but then I'll send you to a great camp. There is so much pressure on kids these days and it's such a hard world for them to be growing up in (spiritually) that this seems to be a way to say to them - here, splurge on something that's allowed.
When you put it that way I sorta see the point... |
Since when is living a Torah lifestyle something that has to be "made up" to people. I don't tell my kids, you can't go shopping on a Saturday because of Shabbat so I'll buy you extra on sunday. Rather Shabbat is a gift. It's a privilege to celebrate it. Shouldn't it be framed as "we're privileged to live a kollel lifestyle", not we're missing out so let's focus on fancy headbands.
I'm not yeshivish, so maybe I'm missing something. But the values that op and dvom are pushing back against, can't be explained by "the torah lifestyle we've chosen isn't fulfilling enough so let's spend our time, energy and money focusing on matching clothing and overpriced luxuries". It's completely mismatched.
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allthingsblue
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Thu, May 30 2019, 9:35 pm
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Mommyg8, personally I think it's very telling that these people have to effectively bribe their kids...
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imasoftov
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Fri, May 31 2019, 9:42 am
| chicco wrote: | | If they can't play chess, what are they supposed to do on Nittle Nacht? |
Checkers?
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Chayalle
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Fri, May 31 2019, 9:50 am
aubergine, in which town do Kollel people send their kids to school for free?
I've only ever gotten a discount of maybe 20%, if I'm lucky. I pay a hefty amount of tuition each year. And I know non-Kollel people who have gotten same or bigger tuition breaks.
In Lakewood, the schools wouldn't be able to operate if they didn't charge tuition from everyone, including Kollel people.
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Chayalle
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Fri, May 31 2019, 9:55 am
| simcha2 wrote: | Since when is living a Torah lifestyle something that has to be "made up" to people. I don't tell my kids, you can't go shopping on a Saturday because of Shabbat so I'll buy you extra on sunday. Rather Shabbat is a gift. It's a privilege to celebrate it. Shouldn't it be framed as "we're privileged to live a kollel lifestyle", not we're missing out so let's focus on fancy headbands.
I'm not yeshivish, so maybe I'm missing something. But the values that op and dvom are pushing back against, can't be explained by "the torah lifestyle we've chosen isn't fulfilling enough so let's spend our time, energy and money focusing on matching clothing and overpriced luxuries". It's completely mismatched. |
Agree. Double like!
I will explain, though, that it isn't easy to tell kids that they are living a privileged Kollel lifestyle, if the child feels a very big lack in a certain area. Kids need to feel that their basic (and sometimes not so basic) needs are being met. Beyond torn or stained clothes, which are a bizayon for any human being...... I don't tell my 11 year old that she is so privileged to have a father learning in Kollel, that she doesn't need to have a sticker collection like everyone else in school.
However, the focus is on keeping things simple. And we don't have to have the biggest collection or go too crazy...but she can have some simple enjoyments, just like everyone else.
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