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Forum -> Fashion and Beauty
Why do people ease tznius rules for themselves??
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:07 am
I'm just so disappointed. I don't want to go into specifics, but I was just on Instagram and saw that, once again, someone I thought was a great role model for my girls because she's doing out of the box things in a really positive way, I see is now becoming less strict about tznius. Why does this always seem to happen? When I started following her, before she was well known, she covered her hair completely, and covered her knees and collarbone completely. Now she's not. Why is it so hard to find people who stay consistent and are able to maintain the same standards of tznius AND do things out in the world that are a bit out of the box? I feel like whenever I tell my girls that you can be totally 100% to our community's tznius standards and still do a lot of cool things, reality steps in and says that anyone who does anything out of the box ends up dropping some tznius levels.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:09 am
No answer, but great question.

I'm just wondering if this makes sense.
Ill take myself as an example. I'm heavy and although Im considered "pretty" I don't really care the way I look. Somehow when I loose weight I make sure to wear all my makeup and dress better.
I sort of feel like more people are looking at me and now that I'm skinny it pays looking good.

Do I sound insane?
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amother
Orange


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:09 am
Maybe you should stop telling your girls that they can do cool things while maintaining your standards 100%. Maybe it’s just not possible.
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Monsey 10952




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:09 am
My mother asked the same question, she still doesn't have an answer.

I think the best option is to look at yourself and stop looking on everyone.

Thank you for understanding.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:22 am
People who are conforming are, well, conforming...so it may be easier to maintain their tznius standards that way. It's probably alot harder (and maybe, then, alot more praiseworthy) if someone does out of the box things and maintains their standards in tznius.

Maybe that's why we say every day - al t'vienu lo lidei nisayon....
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amother
Red


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:23 am
OP, in short: yetzer hara. Always one step ahead of us. Always a moving target hard to hit.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:43 am
These threads are always phrased as a question, when they are really a vent.
If you truly care why and want to hear the reason, why don't you message her and ask?
This girl on IG doesn't live to please you and owes you nothing.
You would do well to find some IRL role models who reflect your values.
Alison Josephs has a vlog series about frum people who do cool things, but I don't know if you would consider them "up to your standards"
If you really can't find anyone who "does cool things" and personifies your values, then why don't YOU try it? Be the change you wish to see in the world.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:45 am
Great question. I've noticed the same.
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pesek zman




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:47 am
We can’t look at other people who may or may not lower their standards. We can only look at ourselves and try to maintain ours.
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:49 am
Out of curiosity, how do you define out of the box? My definition goes a lot further than doing cool things, although not sure which cool things OP meant? You can have a Rav who is a brilliant posek, but whose delivery is very out of the box, for example.
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 11:58 am
Just my opinion but if girls/women are pushing performing arts outside of the school/camp environment, that may be considered out of the box but I can see why it might lead to lowering tznius as the idea of performing in itself has non-tznius components.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 12:11 pm
Just trying to answer your question from my personal viewpoint....
I am someone who does what you might define as "cool things" in the outside world. I can't tell you what that is, since that would be a sure give away for those who know me.
I did not grow up frum, in fact very far away from it, so surely I don't have the knowledge, and it's not ingrained in me, my second nature and so on.
The major one of those "things" that I do, is very very special to me, it's been part of my life for 3 decades or so now. It's my passion,it's how I express myself and my emotions, I feel almost like it's my calling. It's even dare I say, and I don't know how to put this exactly, something spiritual for me.

Slowly, I begin feeling more comfortable in those surroundings than in frum ones. I can relate more to my peers "in that world" than to my frum peers, etc.... you get the idea. I still try and do maintain my frum Jewish identity but to a less stricter standard bc I really can't relate so much...... I'm slipping a bit more and more. And that's how the tznius standards also get less and less strict........I do find it very hard to balance the two.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 12:13 pm
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
Slowly, I begin feeling more comfortable in those surroundings than in frum ones. I can relate more to my peers "in that world" than to my frum peers, etc.... you get the idea.


I completely relate, well said
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BadTichelDay




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 12:45 pm
...Because people are people and we all have free will and a yetzer and surroundings that influence us.
My own tzniut tends to fluctuate - I have gone through months or even years long phases of being more and less machmir. It depends mostly on how I feel about myself, frum Jews in general and on how close or distanced I feel towards Hashem.
It's strange that it's davka a tzniut thing. I mean, I would never fluctuate the level of my Shabbat observance or Taharat Hamishpacha. Total no-no. When it comes to clothes though, it somehow doesn't feel that "bad" to ease it up a bit sometimes. And there are always others who take it even easier. I know deep down it's not right, or at least not ideal, but sometimes I just lose that battle.
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stillnewlywed




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 1:09 pm
If you want to find a role model, don't look on Instagram
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 2:58 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
These threads are always phrased as a question, when they are really a vent.
If you truly care why and want to hear the reason, why don't you message her and ask?
.


I actually did this. I messaged a certain group on instagram to ask why all the male chefs are dressed like normal human beings who are about to cook something, with an apron, etc, and 90% of the female chefs somehow need a makeup artist and a hairdresser, and loooooong wigs to fry some chicken. I mean, do YOU fry chicken in a long curly wig? Make sure to pick the hairs out of your piece, is all I'm saying. And you'll probably need to reset that wig to get rid of the oil that splattered on it, and the smell.

I actually don't care about the tznius part, I cared about the sexist part. They responded graciously and kindly to my rant about it being a personal choice, and I do understand it. They were nothing but nice to me. I think that sometimes peer pressure just is insidious, and that's all there is to it.

I wish I could give a shout out to my favorite instagrammers, but I'm scared it will be avak lashon hara and start someone complaining about them instead. But there are still good ones out there.

But in GENERAL, the role models I point out to my children are in the community, they don't talk about what they do, and they don't advertise their amazingness. That's the tznius you're looking for, actually.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Tue, May 28 2019, 5:37 pm
It’s not only about tznius, in my opinion. There are so many wonderful people out there,each of whom can be a role model in some areas and not in other areas.
Learn from the middos and maalos that you admire, and not from the middos that you don’t.
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merrygold




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 29 2019, 6:39 am
OP, I completely agree with you about this problem. I believe the source of the issue is that a lot of these women are tznius and then less so- all based on their own thoughts and beliefs, not based on guidance from a rav.

In a simular vein, there was one woman that I thought was very articulate in explaining how tznius actually benefits us. In a speech of hers, she said that she used to not have her picture next to her articles, in her books- but then she decided that girls need pictures of frum women as role models so she started putting pictures up. I'm not here to debate whether pics of women should be in publications- what bothered me was that "she decided." A big change like that is something you discuss with your rav.

In any case, the lowering of tznius standards by people I look up to (for tznius in particular) is hard. I keep telling myself that it's just the yetzer hara. We all have a desire to fit in...
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 29 2019, 6:46 am
imorethanamother wrote:
I actually did this. I messaged a certain group on instagram to ask why all the male chefs are dressed like normal human beings who are about to cook something, with an apron, etc, and 90% of the female chefs somehow need a makeup artist and a hairdresser, and loooooong wigs to fry some chicken. I mean, do YOU fry chicken in a long curly wig? Make sure to pick the hairs out of your piece, is all I'm saying. And you'll probably need to reset that wig to get rid of the oil that splattered on it, and the smell.

I actually don't care about the tznius part, I cared about the sexist part. They responded graciously and kindly to my rant about it being a personal choice, and I do understand it. They were nothing but nice to me. I think that sometimes peer pressure just is insidious, and that's all there is to it.

I wish I could give a shout out to my favorite instagrammers, but I'm scared it will be avak lashon hara and start someone complaining about them instead. But there are still good ones out there.

But in GENERAL, the role models I point out to my children are in the community, they don't talk about what they do, and they don't advertise their amazingness. That's the tznius you're looking for, actually.


This is a very cool story. I've reached out twice to frum IG-ers with constructive criticism about behaviour (once about posting nude kids, once about racism) and I was mocked/ignored. I would love it if you would PM me with your fav accounts. There are a lot of great ones out there!
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sneakermom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 29 2019, 7:27 am
People go through stages in life. Sometimes they get a little more stringent. Sometimes without realizing they slide back.

I don’t think we should follow these people around with a magnify glass. Let them be. Cut them slack for being human. Don’t nit pick and judge.

My kids see some of the instagrammers. Not all are coming from similar background to us. And that’s totally fine!! Some cover their hair, some don’t, some wear pants, some are four inches below the knee.

Can’t people relate to others without copying them completely? Can’t we hold on to our individuality while joining together as Am Yisroel?

Is there no other way to relate to someone than by perfectly matched values?

Just thinking out loud.
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