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paperflowers
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 Thu, May 30 2019, 9:58 am
Is there a reason for a shalom zachor and/or a reason not to have one for a girl?
Obviously bris, pidyon haben, I understand. I even get that bar mitzvahs are bigger than bat mitzvahs because there is more ritual attached to it. But shalom zachor just seems like an extra layer of making a big to-do over boys but not girls.
Thoughts?
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someone
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Thu, May 30 2019, 10:01 am
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It's meant to bring the baby under the protection of the Torah until his brit. Obviously it is meant to be an event where people learn Torah, not just a good opportunity to have some schnapps and hang out with your friends.
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amother
Seashell
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Thu, May 30 2019, 10:32 am
| paperflowers wrote: | Is there a reason for a shalom zachor and/or a reason not to have one for a girl?
Obviously bris, pidyon haben, I understand. I even get that bar mitzvahs are bigger than bat mitzvahs because there is more ritual attached to it. But shalom zachor just seems like an extra layer of making a big to-do over boys but not girls.
Thoughts? |
from wiki
The source for this practice is the ruling of the Rema in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 265:12:
It is customary to make a festive meal on the Friday night after the birth of a baby boy. People go to the house where the baby is, to taste something [there], and this [eating] is also [considered] a seudat mitzvah.
The Taz, a major commentator on the Rema, finds the source for the Rema's statement in the Talmudic tractate of Niddah (30b). Here the Talmud states that while a baby develops within the womb, "he is taught the entire Torah. However, as soon as he enters the air of this world, an angel comes and strikes him on his mouth, causing him to forget the entire Torah" (Taz, Yoreh Deah 265:13). Because the baby forgot all the Torah he learned, he is likened to a mourner. Just as people visit a mourner in his home to comfort him during the mourning period, people visit the home of the newborn to console him for the Torah he has forgotten.
So I think that is why people eat chickpeas at a Shalom Zachor (like some people do at a shiva).
So are girls taught all of Torah in the womb?
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ellacoe
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Thu, May 30 2019, 12:11 pm
| amother [ Seashell ] wrote: | from wiki
The source for this practice is the ruling of the Rema in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 265:12:
It is customary to make a festive meal on the Friday night after the birth of a baby boy. People go to the house where the baby is, to taste something [there], and this [eating] is also [considered] a seudat mitzvah.
The Taz, a major commentator on the Rema, finds the source for the Rema's statement in the Talmudic tractate of Niddah (30b). Here the Talmud states that while a baby develops within the womb, "he is taught the entire Torah. However, as soon as he enters the air of this world, an angel comes and strikes him on his mouth, causing him to forget the entire Torah" (Taz, Yoreh Deah 265:13). Because the baby forgot all the Torah he learned, he is likened to a mourner. Just as people visit a mourner in his home to comfort him during the mourning period, people visit the home of the newborn to console him for the Torah he has forgotten.
So I think that is why people eat chickpeas at a Shalom Zachor (like some people do at a shiva).
So are girls taught all of Torah in the womb? |
Thank you for that. I have been curious about the origins of the Shalom Zachor and the chickpeas and even posted here awhile back. I never thought to look on Wiki!
Any idea about the beer?
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SmileNow
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Thu, May 30 2019, 12:34 pm
| amother [ Seashell ] wrote: | from wiki
The source for this practice is the ruling of the Rema in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 265:12:
It is customary to make a festive meal on the Friday night after the birth of a baby boy. People go to the house where the baby is, to taste something [there], and this [eating] is also [considered] a seudat mitzvah.
The Taz, a major commentator on the Rema, finds the source for the Rema's statement in the Talmudic tractate of Niddah (30b). Here the Talmud states that while a baby develops within the womb, "he is taught the entire Torah. However, as soon as he enters the air of this world, an angel comes and strikes him on his mouth, causing him to forget the entire Torah" (Taz, Yoreh Deah 265:13). Because the baby forgot all the Torah he learned, he is likened to a mourner. Just as people visit a mourner in his home to comfort him during the mourning period, people visit the home of the newborn to console him for the Torah he has forgotten.
So I think that is why people eat chickpeas at a Shalom Zachor (like some people do at a shiva).
So are girls taught all of Torah in the womb? |
Just to add, girls do learn also. But we don't have the mitzvah to learn Torah always, hence the new girl neshama is not in mourning
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 30 2019, 2:04 pm
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It's a cultural custom, very nice if people will understand
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chicco
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Thu, May 30 2019, 2:37 pm
| SmileNow wrote: | | Just to add, girls do learn also. But we don't have the mitzvah to learn Torah always, hence the new girl neshama is not in mourning |
Which is also why girls don't have upsherins. Boys keep their hair until the age of chinuch to keep them connected to the Torah that they learned in the womb until they can learn again. The hair is the only thing still have from that time.
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amother
Brunette
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Thu, May 30 2019, 4:26 pm
I'm wondering if its uniquely an ashkenazi minhag or if some sedardim have one as well?
We're sefardic, and we dont.
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paperflowers
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Thu, May 30 2019, 4:47 pm
Thanks for these answers. You know, I never even heard of specifically learning Torah at a shalom zachor. So that's interesting.
From what you all are saying it seems to come down to needing some sort of Torah until the bris, but girls don't have a chiyuv to learn Torah, so no need. But then why wait until Shabbos? What if the baby was born Sunday? Is the baby boy just in danger for a whole week? I remember learning something about the bris being on the eighth day so the baby for sure has a shabbos before the bris. I don't remember why that's necessary, but I wonder if it's related.
And thank you seashell for the source.
While girls don't have a mitzvah of vehagisa bam yomam valayla, they do have a mitzvah to know the parts of the Torah relevant to them, so I would think they would also be in mourning about forgetting that.
I'm trying to understand, but it's hard for me not to view it as celebrating boys more than girls.
Interesting what chicco said about upsherins. My family doesn't have that minhag, but if we did I would have been wondering about that too.
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soap suds
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Thu, May 30 2019, 8:24 pm
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There are people who make a "shalom zachur" for their baby girls. I don't remember what they call it -Shalom Bat? Help me out here. I don't know if there's any minhag behind it. I think it just became a thing because, you know, gotta even out the playing field.
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amother
Seashell
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Thu, May 30 2019, 8:39 pm
| soap suds wrote: | | There are people who make a "shalom zachur" for their baby girls. I don't remember what they call it -Shalom Bat? Help me out here. I don't know if there's any minhag behind it. I think it just became a thing because, you know, gotta even out the playing field. |
Zeved Habat. Its not a "shalom zachor".
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soap suds
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Thu, May 30 2019, 8:46 pm
| amother [ Seashell ] wrote: | | Zeved Habat. Its not a "shalom zachor". |
What is it then? Is it something that was always done or is it a relatively new thing?
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eduardo
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Tue, Dec 10 2019, 4:48 pm
| paperflowers wrote: | Thanks for these answers. You know, I never even heard of specifically learning Torah at a shalom zachor. So that's interesting.
From what you all are saying it seems to come down to needing some sort of Torah until the bris, but girls don't have a chiyuv to learn Torah, so no need. But then why wait until Shabbos? What if the baby was born Sunday? Is the baby boy just in danger for a whole week? I remember learning something about the bris being on the eighth day so the baby for sure has a shabbos before the bris. I don't remember why that's necessary, but I wonder if it's related.
And thank you seashell for the source.
While girls don't have a mitzvah of vehagisa bam yomam valayla, they do have a mitzvah to know the parts of the Torah relevant to them, so I would think they would also be in mourning about forgetting that.
I'm trying to understand, but it's hard for me not to view it as celebrating boys more than girls.
Interesting what chicco said about upsherins. My family doesn't have that minhag, but if we did I would have been wondering about that too. |
I think the reason for it being on Shabbos is that a boy does not receive his neshama until his Bris, but on shabbos we (everyone, not just boys) are given a second neshama. Since a new baby boy does not have his own yet, Shabbos is the only time he will have a neshama before the Bris
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amother
Purple
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Tue, Dec 10 2019, 7:02 pm
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Thanks for bringing this up! I am expecting my first, and have been really wondering. I worry that baby will be born on Friday morning, lol - how will we arrange something so quickly?
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the world's best mom
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Tue, Dec 10 2019, 10:06 pm
| amother [ Brunette ] wrote: | I'm wondering if its uniquely an ashkenazi minhag or if some sedardim have one as well?
We're sefardic, and we dont. | Sefardim do not have them.
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amother
Red
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Tue, Dec 10 2019, 10:26 pm
| amother [ Purple ] wrote: | | Thanks for bringing this up! I am expecting my first, and have been really wondering. I worry that baby will be born on Friday morning, lol - how will we arrange something so quickly? |
We had a Thursday baby and skipped this
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shabbatiscoming
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Wed, Dec 11 2019, 2:48 am
Its a minhag. I know people who dont always do it for any number of reasons.
Its in no way a halacha.
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Mayflower
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Wed, Dec 11 2019, 2:56 am
| amother [ Purple ] wrote: | | Thanks for bringing this up! I am expecting my first, and have been really wondering. I worry that baby will be born on Friday morning, lol - how will we arrange something so quickly? |
We had a baby boy on a Friday. Obviously I wasn't the one arranging it, but I don't think it was such a big deal - my husband just ordered some shnapps, beer, nuts, cakes etc. and a few friends went to shul to set up.
I never knew Sefardim don't do this - always thought it was a universal custom.
The idea of needing to protect the baby boy before the bris is the idea behind the wachnacht.
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paperflowers
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Wed, Dec 11 2019, 8:29 am
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So since this thread has been bumped up... I had a baby girl and was quite happy not to have a whole todo going on when I was feeling awful postpartum. Baruch HaShem for girls.
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