Sefira | Imamother

watergirl

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 8:02 am

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

I have heard the name. There was a girl in my school with that name. No one made fun of her! You get used to a name.

This. Children accept things for what they are and do not start off life with bias. If there is a child in their toddler playgroup, preschool, kindergarten with a classmate named Sefira, I promise, no one will make fun of them. Children enter the world free from bias and do not develop bias until taught to (Lev Vygotsky, Knowledgeable Other).

Who are these nasty children with nasty "others" in their lives who think its ok to make fun of kids names? I did not grow up frum. Is this a frum thing? Is this part of the culture of hating/mocking anything different (also a taught behavior)? No one made fun of names when I was growing up. Kids made fun of other things, sure. But names? Not even today have I heard kids making fun of other kids for their NAMES. Is this a thing? Can I assume the grownups in their lives intervene and correct the bullys? I am honestly shocked that so many people in this thread are excusing bullying.

Truth is, I can just see it now. Kid comes home from school and shows his class list to his mom. Mom is one of these amothers who thinks OP should not use this name. The mom scans the list and says "you have a kid in your class named Safira? Thats an unusual name" and moves on with her day like nothing happened. But your statement has imprinted in your child's mind and you have just given not only bias, but permission to make comments like this about kids names. See how that works? So you are the guilty one, not the kid.

OP, if you like the name, use it. If you are the sort to ask a rav before choosing a name, ask your rav if you can use it. B'shah tovah!

Orchid

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 8:43 am

watergirl wrote:

I agree with everything you write EXCEPT I don't think it's a frum-only thing to make fun of names. I definitely read kids' nonJewish books way back in the day where kids were bullied for having an unusual name. I'll come back and post again if I can remember any of those books.

watergirl

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 8:52 am

Orchid wrote:

I certainly HOPE its not a frum thing. But I’ve honestly never encountered this type of playground bullying before, nor have my kids. And have even more certainly never come across so many women excusing the bullying and telling the victim that they asked for it!

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 9:00 am

Plenty of children with mainstream names are teased mercilessly, while others with unique names are not. IME, no connection.

As for Sefira as a name, from the point of view of an American English-speaker, I think it's lovely. However, I trust Israelis who say that in Israel it is a regular word, not a name. There is a certain nuance involved in knowing that (for example) in American English, some nouns can be names, but other similar words are not - think "Rose" vs "Geranium" - and Anglophone Americans don't always pick up on that when choosing a Hebrew name.

It isn't set in stone, though. In different cultures, the "random word" vs "name" distinction may play out differently even in the same language, and some English names that sound very old-fashioned to my ear are fashionable in other countries. And yes, words do become names, once people start using them as such.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 10:13 am

It was directed at your comment and a couple of others. You for sure can have your own opinion. I was just pointing out that it’s not the popular opinion here. If op wanted to name after a grandmother with an old fashioned sounding name this isn’t what she’d be told. What makes the name strange is the meaning. People do make up new names using Hebrew words. They look for meanings having to do with love, happiness, beauty and things found in nature. I can’t see naming a child Counting. The mother isn’t a Hebrew speaker but if the child is around people who do understand Hebrew it might sound weird.

watergirl

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 11:25 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

If its not the popular opinion on here - so what?

If the name sounds strange - so what?

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 12:04 pm

watergirl wrote:

I've totally seen kids get teased over names in the secular world. I know someone who grew up as a secular Israeli in the US. His name is Dovid and his parents used the common Israeli nickname Dudu. Bad idea in the US, and he got teased for many years.

I also didn't grow up frum and off the top of my head, I remember a girl who got teased because her initials were B.M. and a boy who got teased because his name was Hart and a lot of other kids called him Fart. Go to any non Jewish baby naming forum, and you'll find tons of posts about being careful about names and initials, because it's definitely a thing. If you're a Seinfeld fan, I direct you to the episode about Delores. Kids can be really mean, and yes, making fun of names is super common. It's one of the first things kids who want to tease will use in their teasing.

That said, within reason, I don't think it should be the only consideration. You could name your kid something perfectly normal like Eliezer, and if kids want to be mean to him, they'll figure out to call him Smelly Eli. You could name a kid something weird like, I dunno, Chatul, but if he's really cool and popular, no one will say anything. But kids teasing other kids over their names is as old as the hills and definitely a real thing across cultures, and something a lot of parents definitely take into account.

watergirl

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 12:47 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I've totally seen kids get teased over names in the secular world. I know someone who grew up as a secular Israeli in the US. His name is Dovid and his parents used the common Israeli nickname Dudu. Bad idea in the US, and he got teased for many years.

I also didn't grow up frum and off the top of my head, I remember a girl who got teased because her initials were B.M. and a boy who got teased because his name was Hart and a lot of other kids called him Fart. Go to any non Jewish baby naming forum, and you'll find tons of posts about being careful about names and initials, because it's definitely a thing. If you're a Seinfeld fan, I direct you to the episode about Delores. Kids can be really mean, and yes, making fun of names is super common. It's one of the first things kids who want to tease will use in their teasing.

That said, within reason, I don't think it should be the only consideration. You could name your kid something perfectly normal like Eliezer, and if kids want to be mean to him, they'll figure out to call him Smelly Eli. You could name a kid something weird like, I dunno, Chatul, but if he's really cool and popular, no one will say anything. But kids teasing other kids over there names is as old as the hills and definitely a real thing across cultures, and something a lot of parents definitely take into account.

Ok, I'll coincide to Dudu. Not the best nickname for a kid in America. Although I know an American adult who has always gone by his nickname, Dudie, and he loves his name. He was actually my youth group leader for a year. He rocked that name.

As for the rest of the examples, mean kids will find ANYTHING to be mean about. As parents, its our jobs to do two things; teach our children to be kind by leading by example, and teaching our children to be resilient by leading by example.

I stand by my original post. OP should use a name that she and her husband love. Ask their rav is they are the asking a rav type. Dont if not. And b'shah tovah.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 1:49 pm

watergirl wrote:

Saying that a name is unfair to the child is different from excusing the bullying. It is still wrong to harass someone even if their actual name is Please Make Fun Of Me Finkelstein, but parents are still also responsible for giving their child a presentable name.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jun 05 2019, 2:24 pm

One thing to keep in mind, is how Israelis vs. Anglos and other cultures will interpret a name. There are companies that spend hours of research doing nothing but cross checking trade names before they name a product, logo, or mascot. For example, the Nova car didn't sell well in Mexico, because "no va" means "it doesn't go".

DD went to a school where one of the teachers was named Oshrit. This teacher had a loud, screechy voice, and all the kids hated her. The Anglo kids called her "O-Shriek" behind her back. Sometimes they'd even say it around her, and then pretend that they just made a mistake and mispronounced it.

Don't even get me started on names like Preshush, Munee (pronounced money), and Uneek.

Parents DO have an obligation to give a kid a name that is as normal as possible.