Do you even feel a little bit bad?

nchr

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 6:11 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

what ended Malaria, Yellow fever and black plague? also vaccines?

Malaria and yellow fever were ended in the US with strict public health policies that involving fining and imprisoning individuals who failed to cooperate with government health workers as well as with DDT as detailed in another poster's response. However, there is a yellow fever vaccine and a vaccine for malaria (which is a parasitic infection) is in the works. Black plague is caused by bacteria and can be successfully controlled without the need for vaccinations.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 6:20 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

DDT is not ok because it caused cancer
Polio vaccine which was contaminated with SV40 between 1955 and 1963 and caused cancer in about 10% of those inoculated, is ok. of course, they caught the mistake and hopefully it isn't happening now. but do we know?

and talking of DDT. they now admit that it caused paralysis. do you know anyone who claims to have gotten paralyzed from DDT? or only people who claim Polio which circulated at the same time

Olive, you get so many of your facts wrong. Why don't you just do a little research? All you need to do is to Google and to read.

Here are the facts: Between 10 and 30% of IPV (inactivated polio virus) vaccines produced between 1955 and 1963 were contaminated with a simian virus (SV40). This virus has been shown to cause cancer in some animal models. It has not been shown to cause cancer in humans. (Also, the amount was probably tiny.) From a brief search of Pubmed and CDC, it appears that scientists have studied populations who received the vaccine to see if there was an increased risk of cancer. So far, no such increased risk has been demonstrated.

It's like the business with saccharine and bladder cancer. Saccharine in large amounts has been shown to cause bladder cancer in rats. But the mechanism by which this works in rats doesn't exist in humans. And in fact, there's no evidence that saccharine increases the risk of cancer in humans. (It's bad for you for other reasons.)

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 6:26 pm

To what I wrote above, let me add that the SV40 incident, which has *not* been shown to cause cancer in humans, had the effect of putting into place a comprehensive system to regulate vaccines and ensure their safety.

Even the "bad" vaccine stories, like the Swine Flu vaccine of 1976, show how careful the CDC is. There was a risk of 1 in 100,000 of getting Guillain-Barre from the Swine Flu vaccine. That's still far, far less than the risk of dying from flu. However, the government pulled the vaccine because they monitored adverse effects and because they were not willing to tolerate even this small a risk. The risk still exists with today's vaccine, 1 or 2 cases per million, but it's smaller than the risk of getting Guillain Barre from the flu itself.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 6:43 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

please see my first post on this thread to understand the vaccine injuries

I went back and found your first post. The relative whose kid's vaccination was followed by weeks of high temps and regression is exactly the kind of story I'm talking about. I'm not seeing causation. I have a kid who would have high temps for weeks. Not following vaccination. Usually that turned out to be undiagnosed strep. (For my kids, we often need to do the culture and not just the rapid strep. And even there, I had to call and call to get the results. Parent are often not told. But strep can drag out for weeks if antibiotics are not given. And strep is an awful, awful disease, with all sorts of horrible sequelae, including neurological complications. A lot of times the vax horror stories I hear sound more like PANDAS stories than vax side effects.) Furthermore, a period of sickness is often accompanied by regression. But kids do bounce back, though they are less likely to bounce back if they have PANDAS.

I'm sorry these things happened to your relatives. But I'm still having a hard time understanding this as a vax injury. More likely that the kid picked up strep from the doctor's office, that it was untreated, and that the kid unfortunately got PANDAS. Terrible, but not a vax injury.

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 7:10 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I think first, that we should separate injuries that occur from the vaccine being administered improperly from injuries that occur when the vaccine has been administered properly.

I am the first to raise my hand and point to cases of incompetence on the part of medical professionals, like the nurse at Mount Sinai who gave my father z"l the wrong medication and almost killed him. Human error exists, and absolutely, we should work to eliminate it as much as possible. We can and should do it. (An example of where we did it successfully is anesthesia. Forty or so years ago, 1 in ten thousand patients died while under anesthesia. Now, 1 in a million patients die while under anesthesia. A one-hundred fold reduction in the rate of death. That's fantastic! It can be done for other cases of medical error as well.)

Regarding the second issue, that of injuries even when the vaccine is administered properly: I know this is a sensitive subject for you because your son was injured from a flu vaccine. I know these things happen. But often what I hear from anti-vax people are very vague stories. For example: Their child was sweet tempered and got the MMR and a few months later, he became impossible to control. (That's called turning two years old.) I don't think we should encourage such stories.

I do think understanding the causal mechanism is the only real way to prove causation, but I also realize that it's easy to posit an incorrect causal model for which there is some evidence. The history of science is the story of changing causal models, each of which explains more phenomena than the previous reigning model.

In my son's case, the doctors also had no causal mechanism for the seizures that started a few hours after the vaccine was given and continued for 2 years but wanted to err on the side of caution which disqualified him from all vaccines, even though he never reacted to other vaccines. It seemed to be an overreaction and it really worried me when he went overseas to yeshiva and went to sleep away camp but he was protected by herd immunity. He might have been fine with other vaccines.

He finally had to get the MMR for the sake of himself and his family but BH, he got through it.

amother

Pewter

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 8:21 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

How do you know people in your family were injured? What sorts of injuries were these, how long after the vaccinations did the injuries occur, how long did the injuries last? How do you know the vaccinations caused the injuries?

I myself get annoyed when people say "correlation is not equivalent to causation" because in fact analysis of correlation between two events is often how we first suspect that one event causes another. But we only know that one event causes another IF we can figure out the mechanism of causation between the first event and the second AND if we can demonstrate that this mechanism holds along various points of the causal chain.

In the stories I hear of vaccine injury, I don't see any of this. I don't see correlation, except at the limited anecdotal level. And I certainly don't hear any explanation of a causal mechanism. There's no coherent argument. That's why I don't believe it. I believe that you believe it. But I think that if you thought more logically, you would realize that what you are saying does not form a rational argument.

I also hear people talking about "vaccine injury" when they're actually talking about how the vaccine is supposed to work. Yes, it's often the case that a kid will get a little sick after getting a vaccine. That's because their body is reacting and developing immunity. That was understood even back when Jenner developed his smallpox vaccine. That's not a vaccine injury. That's the vaccine doing its work, and the point is that the minor illness is so much better to get than the actual illness.

Re the bolded: This exactly. When people complain about an adverse event occurring after vaccination over and over again, shouldn't that be the impetus to say "wait, we need to study this before we can continue to administer it"? Of course there is no identified mechanism of causation between the two events. Because they are refusing to study it with the claim that "the science is settled." So they will not do the studies which might prove that the science is not settled. Or rather, that the science is unsettling.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 8:46 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Amother Olive, I find your post impossible to understand. I can't even parse it.

"let's just prove such stories wrong by making better studies"
What are you saying here?

"don't tell me there are unless you bring them to me"
I shouldn't tell you there are what? What or who should I bring to you?

"I never said it's for sure a vaccine injury. maybe yes and maybe no"
You made it very clear in a previous post that you believed that multiple relatives of yours were injured by vaccines. Now you're saying you're not sure. Well, I'm glad you see my point: it's very hard to know if something negative that happened after a vaccine happened because of that vaccine. Negative things happen all the time and vaccines happen all the time.

"that's why everyone gets to do what they're comfortable with"
A non-sequitur if I ever heard one.

---
By the way, I think I may have interacted with you in mid-May when you were amother yellow (in just wondering ... re:vaxxing thread), and in mid-April (in the Measles: Baltimore thread) when you were amother Ruby. Whether or not you were amother Yellow in the just wondering thread, you can go back to that thread to see the discussion of the very partial help that Vitamin A gives -- mostly just to babies under 2 who were known to be low on Vitamin A.

Nah I am those two amothers. I don't have the stamina (nor the stupidity) like amother olive to keep arguing for 13 pages. I do however appreciate your civil and knowledgable posts.

amother

Brunette

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 8:53 pm

flmommy wrote:

https://jennifermargulis.net/measles_vaccine_failure_7_vaccinated_kids_have_measles/

That’s not a case of vaccine failure. That’s a case of someone unable to produce the antibodies needed in response to the shot.
I wouldn’t be surprised if even after getting the measles their blood work still shows no immunity.
Some people can’t produce immunity. I know someone who as an adult had titers tested and wasn’t immune. got the mmr vaccine several times and each time tested titers and still is not immune.

amother

Gray

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 10:26 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Thank you Hashem for a PICU

You seriously are begging for attention here. First you say you’re getting off in imamother. Then you fire off tons of responses with sarcastic or belittling comments, basically thanking hashem for picu’s and belittling the tzaar of each and every parent that has to deal with a (previously healthy) sick child thanks to you and all the selfish anti vaxx ppl who don’t care if even one kid is affected!!
No one is buying your immature mockery of this. I certainly consider you very childish for making a joke out of a serious illness.

amother

Rose

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 10:45 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Strep is an awful awful disease. I totally agree with you. My daughter has PANDAS and it is so so rough.

It struck me how you compared another posters 'vax horror stories' as you put it, to PANDAS. My daughter's neurologist explained to me that there is a blood-brain barrier intended to protect the brain and only allows crossover for things that are safe for the brain. When a child has PANDAS, the blood-brain barrier is weakened and strep antibodies that should not be crossing through the blood-brain barrier are passing through, hence the neurological symptoms.

He added that autism and vaccine injuries are related to the same problematic permeability of the blood-brain barrier, which is why you will see overlap of symptoms. They are all the same thing-foreign elements having access to the brain.

I don't know the details of those stories but you are most likely correct in saying that those stories sound like PANDAS. I suppose this means that kids with autism and PANDAS are more likely to suffer from vaccine injuries.

-anon to protect my daughter's privacy

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 11:50 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

The only time correlation equals causation is if there is encephalitis two years after the measles

yksraya

Fri, Jun 07 2019, 12:13 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

The only time correlation equals causation is if there is encephalitis two years after the measles

So are you willing to expose your kids to measles knowing that encephalitis can happen? This is beyond me!

As for your post about PANDAS and autism: Autism is in the gene, it is not caused or worsened by shots. It in fact has absolutely nothing to do with shots. There were plenty of studies and all of them have the same outcome that "autism is not caused by shots". But anti vaxers would rather ignore the research and then yell that "vaccines haven't got enough research".