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Do CDC scientists ever admit that test results are flawed?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 1:29 am
Do CDC scientists ever admit that test results are flawed?

I vax as do all my relatives, without exception,

BUT

Do scientists ever admit that test results are flawed and do a turnaround and take an opposite or very different position on health matters?

Do they never make mistakes?

And when they do make mistakes, do they publicize it?

What if 5 or 10 years from now, we find out that SOME Vaccines are more harmful than the diseases theyre preventing?
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 1:52 am
Of course. That's what experimentation and scientific review and the scientific method are for.

That's why we don't believe in spontaneous generation and phlogistan theory and Lamarckian evolution anymore.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 2:04 am
I listened to Rabbi Tatz's two part lecture on vaccines. In there he said that most medicines will be considered dangerous after 30 years. (Think about the remedies used in the last 100yrs). But valid hishtadlus is to use the information and knowledge available today.
There are researchers who are constantly trying to create medications and vaccines with optimal results with minimal side effects.
There are people who thrive In the lab. (My Zaidy was a biochemist, he found some important things that I will never understand)
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amother
Beige


 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 7:23 am
DrMom wrote:
Of course. That's what experimentation and scientific review and the scientific method are for.

That's why we don't believe in spontaneous generation and phlogistan theory and Lamarckian evolution anymore.


I couldn't have said it better. Scientists and doctors are constantly publishing journal articles evaluating the efficacy of various therapies. They publish both good and bad data and draw conclusions from it. They are often not affiliated with the government.
I'm a scientist who has spent years in drug research and now in a position where I spend my days reading medical journal articles.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 7:30 am
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
I couldn't have said it better. Scientists and doctors are constantly publishing journal articles evaluating the efficacy of various therapies. They publish both good and bad data and draw conclusions from it. They are often not affiliated with the government.
I'm a scientist who has spent years in drug research and now in a position where I spend my days reading medical journal articles.


What's your opinion on the anti-vaxers "research"? Is there merit?
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amother
Beige


 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 7:33 am
You want me to start a war? I think the overwhelming evidence supports vaccination. I vaccinate. But then again, I used to work for big pharma making vaccines, so they will say my opinion is tainted. 😀
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 06 2019, 7:43 am
Yes, of course. Everythjng DrMom said. Specifically in regard to vaccines, that's why we have improved vaccines, different vaccines, etc. than in the past.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 12:20 am
Imagine how foolish all of us anti-"anti-vaxers" will feel if the CDC comes out with some study saying the risks of vaxing are too high to make it worthwhile, or if the public becomes aware that drug companies are hiding evidence that shows that vaxes are more dangerous than the public is aware of, or that theyre paying people off to shut up about the risks of vaxes. And that pharmaceutical executives care much more about their purses, than the public's health.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 12:36 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Imagine how foolish all of us anti-"anti-vaxers" will feel if the CDC comes out with some study saying the risks of vaxing are too high to make it worthwhile, or if the public becomes aware that drug companies are hiding evidence that shows that vaxes are more dangerous than the public is aware of, or that theyre paying people off to shut up about the risks of vaxes.


Absolute last thing I'm worrying about.

Not happening.

They have been tested and proven safe many times over.

Next topic
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 12:46 am
Eh, not sure. It took an awfully long time for the risks of lead to be acknowledged. X-rays too.

Not that I get how anyone thinks that the risk/benefit ratio favors wild measles over the MMR, but who knows?

Scientific practice tends to trail 20 years or so after evidence. (Well, so does education, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to awaken the same level of passion as medical matters do.)

Or in other words, I do think that some unintended effects of vaccines will come to light years from now. Don't know if they will change the risk/benefit ratio, except perhaps to push it stronger to favor vaccinating. Yes, they are hesitant to reverse position, but that's true with everything, not specifically in regards to vaccinating. I don't believe they are hiding anything sinister.

(Oh, and I am a very selective/delayed vaxxer.)
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Sunny Days




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 12:55 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Imagine how foolish all of us anti-"anti-vaxers" will feel if the CDC comes out with some study saying the risks of vaxing are too high to make it worthwhile, or if the public becomes aware that drug companies are hiding evidence that shows that vaxes are more dangerous than the public is aware of, or that theyre paying people off to shut up about the risks of vaxes.

Then? You already had your treat. Didn’t you have a lollipop at the measles party?

But this like saying scientists will come in 5 years from now that actually the sky is green with tinges of purple, but pollution made it be an optical Illusion.

But you’re talking big time nonsense Not listening
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 2:37 am
gamzehyaavor wrote:
Then? You already had your treat. Didn’t you have a lollipop at the measles party?

But this like saying scientists will come in 5 years from now that actually the sky is green with tinges of purple, but pollution made it be an optical Illusion.

But you’re talking big time nonsense Not listening


Everyone I know, including myself, has made flawed judgments about people and things.

We know nothing for sure, except for the fact that the people in the pharmaceutical business are becoming gazillionaires, and are heavily into lobbying government officials, to continue getting wealthier and wealthier. And that they care much more about company and personal profit, than the public's health.

Everything else is less certain.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 2:49 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Everyone I know, including myself, has made flawed judgments about people and things.

We know nothing for sure, except for the fact that the people in the pharmaceutical business are becoming gazillionaires, and are heavily into lobbying government officials, to continue getting wealthier and wealthier. And that they care much more about company and personal profit, than the public's health.

Everything else is less certain.

Really? That's *all* we know? That's all the human race knows about the topic of vaccines?

Does this apply to all vaccines? What about polio vaccines? Was Jonas Salk just in it for the cash?

Does this apply to all medications?
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amother
Beige


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 5:49 am
I can't believe I'm getting sucked into it. Most scientists are not millionaires. They are the one doing the research. If the research was as bad as you said, it would come up. The people on the top are rich. But R&d stops all the time based on bad results. Drugs are pulled from the market by government and companies when bad side effects are discovered both in trials and afterwards. Doctors and researchers at universities also publish these studies (both bad and good).
Of course, you are not going to believe me, and I'm not quite sure why I'm wasting my time arguing this. I learned long ago that antivaxers are not going to listen.
But at least get some facts right. The CDC has nothing to do with approving a vaccine. It's the FDA. The CDC is in charge of public health and stopping outbreaks.
Anyway, back to real science. 😀
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 7:57 am
The recommendation for routine mammograms and PSA testing have changed and researchers determined that for every life that they actually save, a thousand people suffer needless procedures due to false positives. While early detection can save lives, not all cancers are harmful. After recommending these routine screenings for years and touting them as life saving, the medical research showed that we are safe doing them less frequently.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 8:41 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Everyone I know, including myself, has made flawed judgments about people and things.

We know nothing for sure, except for the fact that the people in the pharmaceutical business are becoming gazillionaires, and are heavily into lobbying government officials, to continue getting wealthier and wealthier. And that they care much more about company and personal profit, than the public's health.

Everything else is less certain.


I find it very interesting that your people for the most part stopped talking about vaccine injury and are much more into the conspiracy part. Rabbi handlers entire speech the other night was about the cdc fooling us. I did not hear one world about the many children that were vaccine injured or that measles is safer than the vaccine.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 9:52 am
DrMom wrote:
Of course. That's what experimentation and scientific review and the scientific method are for.

That's why we don't believe in spontaneous generation and phlogistan theory and Lamarckian evolution anymore.





Full vaxxer here.

The difference is that the scientists who tested the theories you mentioned had no stake in the outcome. The reality is that the CDC does indeed get lots of funding from pharmaceutical companies who benefit from the outcome going a certain way.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 9:58 am
The CDC is a government agency that gets appropriated money thru Congress. The cdc actually gives money to the pharmaceutical companies when they buy vaccines and drugs. Not the other way. Have a good Yom tov everyone. I've wasted enough time on this thread.

Eta: in the interest of full disclosure, the FDA does get fees from pharma companies for the drug approval process. I'm sure the FDA is lobbied by pharma also. However, they still don't always approve drugs and they sometimes pull drugs. Also many doctors and scientists do studies on these drugs and vaccines. The big names do get grants and funding from pharma, but there is scientific intergrity as well. It would be revealed if there was data out there that was so bad. Remember vioxx? Other pulled drugs? Ever heard of tort lawsuits? As someone who has worked in the industry, I can't believe that everyone (including journals etc) are paid off. I'm know I'm wasting my time trying to convince people. Have a good Yom tov everyone.
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 10:53 am
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
The CDC is a government agency that gets appropriated money thru Congress. The cdc actually gives money to the pharmaceutical companies when they buy vaccines and drugs. Not the other way. Have a good Yom tov everyone. I've wasted enough time on this thread.

Eta: in the interest of full disclosure, the FDA does get fees from pharma companies for the drug approval process. I'm sure the FDA is lobbied by pharma also. However, they still don't always approve drugs and they sometimes pull drugs. Also many doctors and scientists do studies on these drugs and vaccines. The big names do get grants and funding from pharma, but there is scientific intergrity as well. It would be revealed if there was data out there that was so bad. Remember vioxx? Other pulled drugs? Ever heard of tort lawsuits? As someone who has worked in the industry, I can't believe that everyone (including journals etc) are paid off. I'm know I'm wasting my time trying to convince people. Have a good Yom tov everyone.


beige- thanks for taking the time to respond. you are right- there is no point wasting more time arguing.

mods- now that we have had someone who works in the feild explain the process of doing research and assured everone that it is IMPOSSIBLE that everyone in the research world is paid off to lie, can we lock the thread.

im reporting this post.

have a good yom tov
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2019, 11:15 am
I don't think this thread should be locked, because I'd like to respond. But I won't have time to respond until Tuesday at the earliest. (Working + cooking today; then once Yom Tov is over Monday night, I have to work all night to get stuff done by deadlines.)

Why would we want to lock this thread? I think it's a great opportunity to discuss how research works, why scientists changing their mind is a sign of the robustness of research, and not the opposite.

Please don't lock the thread.
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