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Why do chassidim make aliya? Split
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 6:53 am
Israeli_C wrote:
Would you also tell someone in intelligence that he was relying on 'herd immunity' because he's not combat? Of course not. Likewise, a bachur who learns also plays a role in the protection of EY. Yissachar and Zevlun need one another to achieve a common goal- the safety of the land. One who believes that our safety is solely in the hands of tanks and army generals is quite frankly lacking in emuna.
The whole yissachar/zevulun idea, I believe, is really only believed to be a real thing, among the charedi world. Nobody else. Im just being honest here.
Not many people who I know believe in that. And do you know why? Because their sons (and daughters) are in the army and the boys (and some girls as well) are learning too.


Other than that, this thread is so very sad and upsetting.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:01 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
The whole yissachar/zevulun idea, I believe, is really only believed to be a real thing, among the charedi world. Nobody else. Im just being honest here.
Not many people who I know believe in that. And do you know why? Because their sons (and daughters) are in the army and the boys (and some girls as well) are learning too.


Other than that, this thread is so very sad and upsetting.


You don't believe in yisachar and zevulan? What about the other 10 shevatim - do you believe in them?

What about the Rambam, do you believe in him?

This is anyways not related to the discussion at hand.

ETA: I didn't get the relevance of yisachar zevulan when I posted this, I had to read backwards. The yisachar and zevulan analogy may not be completely relevant to the army, but there are other analogies here that do work. Don't have time to look them up now though.


Last edited by Mommyg8 on Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:06 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
You don't believe in yisachar and zevulan? What about the other 10 shevatim - do you believe in them?

What about the Rambam, do you believe in him?

This is anyways not related to the discussion at hand.
Huh? I meant the concept of one learning while the other goes out and tills the field. Did you seriously not realize I meant that?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:08 am
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
those "hesder" guys are aren't the "very frum" clearly. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


I came back to this thread to apologize for this.

I don't live in Israel, so I'm not up to date with everything going on, so I had to do a bit of googling.

From the numerous articles and explanations I have read, I have gotten the following (please correct me if I have misunderstood):

Only 25% of DL boys go to hesder yeshivos. Hesder yeshiva is intense and it's not for everyone (the learning that is). Most of the DL boys go the army straight.

What I have gotten, also, is that the hesder boys have special units (not mixed) and they are able to serve together. Also, this is a constant point of contention between secular Israelis and DL. The secular see the reduced army service and segregated units as sherking .

Did I get this right so far?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:11 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Huh? I meant the concept of one learning while the other goes out and tills the field. Did you seriously not realize I meant that?


I very seriously doubt that the army is in the category of tilling the field. But there are numerous stories in Tanach of wars that were won by nissim. Many of you have mentioned that there are numerous miracles every day in Israel- from whence do the miracles come if not from our tefillos?

In any case, I shouldn't have joined this thread to begin with as I don't live in Israel. My mistake, I thought all Jews have a stake in the country...
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:28 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I very seriously doubt that the army is in the category of tilling the field. But there are numerous stories in Tanach of wars that were won by nissim. Many of you have mentioned that there are numerous miracles every day in Israel- from whence do the miracles come if not from our tefillos?

In any case, I shouldn't have joined this thread to begin with as I don't live in Israel. My mistake, I thought all Jews have a stake in the country...
Yes, tefilot for sure have helped in ALL the different nissim that have ever happened in Israel. That is very different than someone sitting all day and learning.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:28 am
Such a weird thread.
The title is about chassidim but there are so many others that make aliya and don't serve in the army.
The no serve question is a big one. and it has nothing to do with making aliya.
I believe jews belong in E"Y.
I believe that we need an army.
I believe we need a team of serious men that will learn for our protection.
Sadly the army of today in E"Y is far from the standard of halacha I can be comfortable with.
And I also very strongly believe that we do not need every 18 year old in the army.
I also appreciate very very much the holy work your sons are doing, I will teach my children to respect these boys and girls who are moser nefesh mamash.
I respect very very much the mothers that send their children out there.
And since this world is far from perfection many things can be true at once.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:34 am
Again, I don't live in Israel, but I understand that frum askanim (with the backing of Rav Shteinman tzl) tried to create a unit for Chareidi soldiers. I don't know how well it worked out, but I did hear that the army is not really interested in having them. And again, from what I am hearing, the secular Israelis are fighting the hesder as well.

As for the army being a good place spiritually - a DL Rav has gone on record saying that a quarter of DL boys who join the army become not frum. (Not hesder, regular army).

Many of you have mentioned kosher food, tefillin being available. But what about kedoshim teyehu - segregation of the s*xes - is that part of the army experience as well? For those who say we should just deal- here in America many try to keep away from secular environments as well. Certainly in my world boys are in yeshiva until at least 25. So this is obviously not only about Israel or the army- Chareidim don't allow boys to enter the secular workforce over here either (and the army is much more challenging than a secular workforce).
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amother
Linen


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:35 am
And if we are seeking the truth charedim aren't the only sector that will not serve.
Hill top type DL have had a major fallout with the medina and will not serve in the army. And yet their love to this land cannot be questioned.
Hence providing proof that love of E"Y does not need to come along with serving in the army.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:38 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Again, I don't live in Israel, but I understand that frum askanim (with the backing of Rav Shteinman tzl) tried to create a unit for Chareidi soldiers. I don't know how well it worked out, but I did hear that the army is not really interested in having them. And again, from what I am hearing, the secular Israelis are fighting the hesder as well.

As for the army being a good place spiritually - a DL Rav has gone on record saying that a quarter of DL boys who join the army become not frum. (Not hesder, regular army).

Many of you have mentioned kosher food, tefillin being available. But what about kedoshim teyehu - segregation of the s*xes - is that part of the army experience as well? For those who say we should just deal- here in America many try to keep away from secular environments as well. Certainly in my world boys are in yeshiva until at least 25. So this is obviously not only about Israel or the army- Chareidim don't allow boys to enter the secular workforce over here either (and the army is much more challenging than a secular workforce).
which dati leumi rav was this? And im sure that there are many who become non religious after the army. It also has to do with being away from home and being able to do their own thing.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:41 am
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
And if we are seeking the truth charedim aren't the only sector that will not serve.
Hill top type DL have had a major fallout with the medina and will not serve in the army. And yet their love to this land cannot be questioned.
Hence providing proof that love of E"Y does not need to come along with serving in the army.


No comparison.

Hilltop youth are 100 kids with arrest records. I absolutely question their love of the land. They're anarchists with no support. As opposed to thousands of charedi boys (most of whom aren't cut out for full-time learning anyhow) who are being supported with full force by the charedi establishment.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:45 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
No comparison.

Hilltop youth are 100 kids with arrest records. I absolutely question their love of the land. They're anarchists with no support. As opposed to thousands of charedi boys (most of whom aren't cut out for full-time learning anyhow) who are being supported with full force by the charedi establishment.


I did not say hilltop youth. I said hilltop DL. With that I mean healthy families raising healthy balanced youth, going to DL Yeshivot.
Lets not pretend they don't exist.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:47 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
which dati leumi rav was this? And im sure that there are many who become non religious after the army. It also has to do with being away from home and being able to do their own thing.


You can Google it. But you agree that many do become irreligious. In my community, the boys who dorm from 18 and up do not become irreligious in droves, and those who go to Israel for a year or two don't either. So I guess bring away from home doing your own thing does not universally create chilonim.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:52 am
I just want to point out that the Chazon Ish has said that joining the army is yaharog v'al yaavor. I have no idea what he would say today, and/or if the army is different today, if the situation is different today, etc. I agree that the Chareidi leaders should try to work something out. I'm pretty sure that I heard that Rav Shteinman did try, but it did not work out as planned.

Anyway, again, I don't live in Israel and I don't keep up with all the politics. Thank goodness.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 7:58 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
The Torah says very clearly that if you don't follow the Torah and mitzvos, we will be expelled from the land. The land itself is kodosh, and will vomit up it's inhabitants if they don't follow Torah and mitzvos. So no, the land will only allow frum people - and even then, only if they follow the Torah completely.



It's difficult to make this claim because there are many brochos and curses in the torah that don't happen. There are many answers, but the point still stands. You cannot make a blanket statement that if jews in Israel didn't follow the torah, they would all be expelled. There are literally dozens of interpretations of various things in the torah that didn't come to pass. All the sudden with this one it's black and white? C'mon.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:04 am
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
It's difficult to make this claim because there are many brochos and curses in the torah that don't happen. There are many answers, but the point still stands. You cannot make a blanket statement that if jews in Israel didn't follow the torah, they would all be expelled. There are literally dozens of interpretations of various things in the torah that didn't come to pass. All the sudden with this one it's black and white? C'mon.


Oh, wow. So you don't believe what the Torah has written? Do you say shema? Do you understand what you are saying? Do you believe what you are saying or is it just mumbo jumbo to you?

Do you also not believe that churban rishon and churban sheini happened?
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:05 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
You can Google it. But you agree that many do become irreligious. In my community, the boys who dorm from 18 and up do not become irreligious in droves, and those who go to Israel for a year or two don't either. So I guess bring away from home doing your own thing does not universally create chilonim.


Yes, many leave Orthodoxy, especially boys.
The 'stronger' ones go to hesder (about 20%) and to the one-year mechinot programs (about 17%) or other higher yeshiva programs (another 8%) and about 55% go straight to the army.
Generally, those who leave are well on their way even in high school.
The army is often a facilitator to the process.
This is a very sad fact and the DL sector has yet to figure out exactly how to deal with the phenomenon.
This being said, I don't think it's fair to 'blame' the army. Granted, as I said it often facilitates the process by creating close contact between populations, but given DL ideology of involvment with the 'outside' secular world, it's hard to isolate the army specifically as a cause of young people leaving. It's their first 'mixed' framework as adults - the first of many.
Regarding young haredi men just out of yeshiva serving in the army as it is today - of course it would be very problematic for them to serve as individuals in regular units.
The army would have to work with rabbonim to create special units, maybe even dedicated bases to provide the proper conditions for their service.
But this is certainly not an impossibility. לא בשמים היא, and the Israeli army has faced far greater challenges. However, there has to be a real willingness on the part of haredi society and especially its leaders, for this to happen.
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lcraighten




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:13 am
Wow what a thread. So much vitriol. It makes me sad that we are such a small community and we can't appreciate another community. There really is a place for everyone - שבעים פנים לתורה. Why can't we appreciate the fact that the non-frum Jews and the DL Jews are the ones protecting the Yeshiva Boys? Yes, learning Torah protects E"Y, but so does the army. Hashem does not work with open nissim and just Torah learning would not be enough. It is a symbiotic relationship and it would be a big help for the non-religious (who don't believe the Torah learning does anything) if at least there would be a communal appreciation for the men and women who lay down their lives.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:13 am
etky wrote:
Yes, many leave Orthodoxy, especially boys.
The 'stronger' ones go to hesder (about 20%) and to the one-year mechinot programs (about 17%) or other higher yeshiva programs (another 8%) and about 55% go straight to the army.
Generally, those who leave are well on their way even in high school.
The army is often a facilitator to the process.
This is a very sad fact and the DL sector has yet to figure out exactly how to deal with the phenomenon.
This being said, I don't think it's fair to 'blame' the army. Granted, as I said it often facilitates the process by creating close contact between populations, but given DL ideology of involvment with the 'outside' secular world, it's hard to isolate the army specifically as a cause of young people leaving. It's their first 'mixed' framework as adults - the first of many.
Regarding young haredi men just out of yeshiva serving in the army as it is today - of course it would be very problematic for them to serve as individuals in regular units.
The army would have to work with rabbonim to create special units, maybe even dedicated bases to provide the proper conditions for their service.
But this is certainly not an impossibility. לא בשמים היא, and the Israeli army has faced far greater challenges. However, there has to be a real willingness on the part of haredi society and especially its leaders, for this to happen.


This is a very interesting and thought out post. Thank you for writing this. I don't have time to respond in full (I'm running off to work) but I just want to point out two quick points:

First, that in my community here in America we keep our sons (and daughters) as insulated as possible. My own sons will not be going to work until at least 25 - and that's at the very, very earliest. The Chassidim are even more insulated than us. So this particular point is true here in America as well, and has nothing to do with the army.

Second, if you will be honest, you will have to admit that the real reason the Chareidi units are not working out is not ONLY because of the Chareidi side. It takes two to tangle, as they say. There are certainly Rabbanim who tried working something out.
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:20 am
etky wrote:
Yes, many leave Orthodoxy, especially boys.
The 'stronger' ones go to hesder (about 20%) and to the one-year mechinot programs (about 17%) or other higher yeshiva programs (another 8%) and about 55% go straight to the army.
Generally, those who leave are well on their way even in high school.
The army is often a facilitator to the process.
This is a very sad fact and the DL sector has yet to figure out exactly how to deal with the phenomenon.
This being said, I don't think it's fair to 'blame' the army. Granted, as I said it often facilitates the process by creating close contact between populations, but given DL ideology of involvment with the 'outside' secular world, it's hard to isolate the army specifically as a cause of young people leaving. It's their first 'mixed' framework as adults - the first of many.
Regarding young haredi men just out of yeshiva serving in the army as it is today - of course it would be very problematic for them to serve as individuals in regular units.
The army would have to work with rabbonim to create special units, maybe even dedicated bases to provide the proper conditions for their service.
But this is certainly not an impossibility. לא בשמים היא, and the Israeli army has faced far greater challenges. However, there has to be a real willingness on the part of haredi society and especially its leaders, for this to happen.


There has to be a real willingness on the part of the army as well, and I really don't see that happening. For the most part, the army does not want chareidim. Dealing with Shabbos, Kashrus, gender separation, time for davening and learning etc do not mesh well with army routine. True, Hesder does it, but I don't believe that the army would be willing to have it become more widespread.

In addition, many groups hold that serving in the army is completely assur for all sorts of reasons. Other Rabbanim hold that it is a very good thing to do. I think that we should leave the machlokes in the hands of the Rabbanim who, hopefully, handle it with much less animosity.
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