Why do chassidim make aliya? Split

aquad

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:32 am

yerushamama wrote:

Actually, that's incorrect. The army wants the hesder boys because few other sectors of society are eager to do combat units. Hesder boys often want to be in combat units, and some eager boys start training early so that they can get into good units.
When army service is part of religious service, it's taken seriously.

amother

Linen

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:32 am

yerushamama wrote:

There has to be a real willingness on the part of the army as well, and I really don't see that happening. For the most part, the army does not want chareidim. Dealing with Shabbos, Kashrus, gender separation, time for davening and learning etc do not mesh well with army routine. True, Hesder does it, but I don't believe that the army would be willing to have it become more widespread.

In addition, many groups hold that serving in the army is completely assur for all sorts of reasons. Other Rabbanim hold that it is a very good thing to do. I think that we should leave the machlokes in the hands of the Rabbanim who, hopefully, handle it with much less animosity.

Those are really not only issues.
As long as the army is not a tzva halacha it will not be enough.
Will newlyweds be given a deferment? Who will decide which battles to fight? Who will decide what is considered pichuach nefesh on shabbat?

LovesHashem

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:33 am

I live in Israel. I want to expand on Mommyg8's thoughts a bit.
Army is important. Learning is important.
Being safe is important.

Doing half half isn't necessarily the big answer.
Some people aren't cut out for learning at all (Secular Jews) and some are not cut out for army at all (very religious Jews whose standards will be affected).
Some kids aren't cut out to do either fully and rather to do half half.

According to the Rabbanim in my circles there's not enough learners out there. And the army simply doesn't need more people.

Every secular Jew in the country(and some arabs, bedouins, and people from abroad ) are doing full time army. Do we have equal amounts of people learning? Especially on behalf of all those Jews who have never even opened a gemara.

yerushamama

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:41 am

aquad wrote:

While what you are saying is different from what I said, I don't understand how it contradicts what I said.

etky

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:47 am

yerushamama wrote:

The truth is that the army is not really the body that decides on this - although of course if the a large scale draft of the haredi sector is legislated, then it will have to hammer out the details with haredi leaders to make it work.
We're talking here about a political decision. Not sure how many of the chutznikim follow Israeli politics, but this is the precise issue that just shot down the results of the last election and forced new elections in September. For the first time in the history of Israel, no government was able to be formed after an election -even with the very clear cut majority of the right wing parties. This issue - the insistence of Avigdor Lieberman that the Draft Law be passed -was the cause.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:49 am

LovesHashem wrote:

And this here is the crux of the issue. if each male was given the ability to see what he was good at and come up with a plan that way, that might work. But to group ALL charedim and ALL chilonim together is just wrong. I will say that many secular jews do learn (not in the way that you are referring the kollel learners do) and some charedim do the army.
We cant group people together all of the time. Thats part of the problem.

aquad

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:49 am

yerushamama wrote:

While what you are saying is different from what I said, I don't understand how it contradicts what I said.

The army (afaik) doesn't need more people who don't want to be there and can only be trusted to peel potatoes. It does need people who want to be there and are fit for combat and/ or intelligence.

So while the army isn't interested in drafting young charedim who don't want to be there, it's happy to accommodate hesderniks, netzach yehuda/nachal charedi, because they want to be there and provide valuable service. Despite the extra hassle involved of providing specialized services for the religious soldiers.

Goodness, the army has an autistic unit, where people with autism serve doing specialized intelligence (analyzing photographs - https://www.idf.il/en/minisite.....9900/). If the army can accommodate special needs soldiers, it can accommodate religious soldiers.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:50 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

In the torah, a difference is made about different types of war. There were those where all eligible men were required to fight, and those where far fewer men were required. According to many, the wars nowadays would fall under the second category, in which those who do not want to fight stay home. Others hold that an Israeli government not run entirely according to torah has no right to force people to serve in the army (among other issues). Why would people who hold that way move here or make aliya? Many reasons. Some may not have either held that way or understood Israeli politics at the time. Others feel that EY belongs to all Jews, regardless of how they feel about the government. I don't think that any Rabbanim hold that the current state of affairs is L'chatchilla, and the way the army is run is definitely not in line with the torah in so many ways. I, personally, question the sanity of any mother who WANTS her sons to have to fight in ANY army. I am not speaking of self defense - obviously that is a different issue, but when I hear of mothers who are so proud that their sons are fighting, and respond with anger to anyone who says that they hope it will not be an issue by the time their sons are of age, I really question their sanity.

I’m one of those mothers who is SO proud of my son fighting in the army. He is not religious but still feels it is his duty to protect ALL Jews, even the ones that refuse to enlist and think they are better than him because they learn all day. Do you know how hard it is to do something that benefits not just yourself, but other people who don’t seem at all grateful for what others do? It’s hard! But my son pushes all of that to the side when the Arabs are firing rockets at us or stabbing Jews. How can I not be proud of that? Of course, there’s always that fear of “what if,” but I’ll drive myself crazy if I think like that. And even worst, I’ll drive my son crazy if I show that I’m constantly worried about him. So I display my pride and get all mushy with him (even though he hates it LOL

) because what he does is incredibly valuable.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:51 am

aquad wrote:

But as I mentioned, my understanding is that hesder is not the majority of DL.

Again, I have full respect and appreciation for the amazing hesder boys and their families, but this is not our ideology. Our (my) top learners are not going to the army.

Also, the army may want them but the secular Israeli is often unhappy that the hesder boys serve less time than they do, at least from what I understand from this side of the pond.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

yerushamama

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 8:55 am

aquad wrote:

Exactly - the army has no interst in accommodating soldiers that they neither want nor need. So why are politicians trying to force this on everyone? waiting

etky

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 9:01 am

LovesHashem wrote:

This is not the prism through which Israeli society as a whole views the topic.
"Learning" is not currency for most people in Israel. You might as well offer to daven instead of paying taxes. That is how absurd this equation appears to secular people.
I understand that this argument holds logic within the haredi sector but you can't expect people outside of the haredi sector to give it any credence.

aquad

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 9:10 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

And I agree, top learners shouldn't go. I don't know what type of faher you want to devise to identify the top, but some percentage of boys should be deferred because their learning is that important.

But what percentage? Are all 68,000 deferred yeshiva students top learners? Even Lapid agreed to some deferred students, although the amount was ridiculously low.

Are all 68,000 really 'top'?

amother

Taupe

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 9:14 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

This is a very interesting and thought out post. Thank you for writing this. I don't have time to respond in full (I'm running off to work) but I just want to point out two quick points:

First, that in my community here in America we keep our sons (and daughters) as insulated as possible. My own sons will not be going to work until at least 25 - and that's at the very, very earliest. The Chassidim are even more insulated than us. So this particular point is true here in America as well, and has nothing to do with the army.

Second, if you will be honest, you will have to admit that the real reason the Chareidi units are not working out is not ONLY because of the Chareidi side. It takes two to tangle, as they say. There are certainly Rabbanim who tried working something out.

Can I ask a question about this? And I’m not being snarky at all. This thread has enough of it. Will you and your husband be supporting yours sons until that age? Or I’m assuming they’ll be married, so their wives will be supporting the home? Can they get college degrees in this timeframe or is it solely learning?

amother

Coral

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 9:15 am

There is no question that I believe in the importance of learning and that Eretz Yisrael's safety is in obviously the hands of Hashem, but to me, how is this any different than one who is suffering from infertility and says tehillim, but doesn't go to a reproductive endocrinologist. Who has cancer and davens, but doesn't do chemo..... you get the point.
We need to do our histadlut.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 9:17 am

aquad wrote:

My point was that the hesder boys are the top in DL. This is the segment that keeps being cited here as successful, but I personally would not be ok with that kind of arrangement.

I have no idea what we should do with the "bottom" and I don't think anyone else does either.... Again, it's really not simple but I don't have time to go into that now...