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Why do chassidim make aliya? Split
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 10:57 pm
amother [ White ] wrote:
How convenient.


Like I said, it is the men who are learning that are protecting the rest of the country. But if you really don't believe that, then what DO you believe in? Do you believe in the Torah? Do you believe that we have to follow Hashem's mitzvos? Do you believe all the klallim chas vsholom? Or do you pick and choose the parts of the Torah that you like?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:00 pm
sequoia wrote:
Of course I’m aware.

It sounded like you were asking, “how are boys from DL/Chardal communities allowed to serve in the army?” And that’s why I replied, they’re not just allowed, they’re encouraged!


Again, are you aware that the Rabbanim in the Chareidi sector do not encourage their boys to join the army? Obviously there are different Rabbanim who have diametrically opposite viewpoints. I understand that DL are encouraged... And I'm sure you are aware that the Chareidi Rabbanim do not agree.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:02 pm
If this is a genuine question, it should be met with sincere dialogue.

There is a place for us all. Some prioritize actual physical protection while others prioritize spiritual protection. It’s a great shidduch! All bases are covered!
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:03 pm
amother [ White ] wrote:
How convenient.

How convenient to follow my LOR. Yes. I do find it quite convenient to have someone who can tell me what halachos to follow.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:03 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Again, are you aware that the Rabbanim in the Chareidi sector do not encourage their boys to join the army? Obviously there are different Rabbanim who have diametrically opposite viewpoints. I understand that DL are encouraged... And I'm sure you are aware that the Chareidi Rabbanim do not agree.


Yes.

I think we’re on the same page.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:05 pm
I think this thread should be moved to "Respectfully learning about different sects".
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amother
White


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:15 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Like I said, it is the men who are learning that are protecting the rest of the country. But if you really don't believe that, then what DO you believe in? Do you believe in the Torah? Do you believe that we have to follow Hashem's mitzvos? Do you believe all the klallim chas vsholom? Or do you pick and choose the parts of the Torah that you like?


I don’t believe their blood is more valuable than the hesder boys who do both.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:17 pm
I ask a question, and instead of an answer, to better understand each other, I got attacked. It feels very close-minded and defensive, which is not how the question was asked. In fact, what I wrote originally, I deleted and rewrote, because I didn't want to be misinterpreted as judgements.

Regarding the American army, there is currently no draft. If there was, then it would apply.

I do not have sons, but my daughter very much wants to serve Israel in a capacity, as she feels that it is just as much our country and our responsibility to protect. May of my friends and relatives are Chayalim Bodedim.

To say that the DL and Torani boys in Hesder are not sufficiently frum is disgusting and chutzpah. Who are we to judge each other's branch and understanding of Torah Judaism?!?!?
IMO that falls very heavily under the category of sinat chinam. My beliefs and interpretation of the Torah and my minhagin may be different then yours but that doesn't make them less correct. Do not for one minute think that MO is watered down Torah Judaism. There may be some people who in every sect are more careful and stringent than others, but most of us are MO lechatchila, not bidieved.

In fact, I find some people here to be toxic and mean, what does your Rav say about that? Is it ok if the person is not chassidishe?
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:20 pm
amother [ White ] wrote:
I don’t believe their blood is more valuable than the hesder boys who do both.


Of course everyone has a mitzva to learn, and it's special that these boys spend time in Yeshiva.

But what I think Mommyg8 is trying to say is - you can't compare someone who learns part time to someone who learns full time. These boys who are fully immersed in learning are definitely part of the spiritual army, protecting the country.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:22 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Like I said, it is the men who are learning that are protecting the rest of the country. But if you really don't believe that, then what DO you believe in? Do you believe in the Torah? Do you believe that we have to follow Hashem's mitzvos? Do you believe all the klallim chas vsholom? Or do you pick and choose the parts of the Torah that you like?


If the full time learners are protecting the country, shouldn't they establish yeshivas along the Gaza borders, where they seem to be needed?

It's quite possible to believe in the power of learning and in the Torah, and to think that Jews need an army.

Have you just read parashas Bamidbar - in which the Jews are counted so that they can organize an army? Surely, with Moshe Rabbenu as their leader, they shouldn't need an army. But they do, and no one thinks otherwise. In fact, later on, Moshe Rabbenu blasts the two and a half shevatim who want to stay on the east bank of the Yarden when he thinks they want to avoid military service.

So now tell me, do you pick and choose the parts of the Torah that you like?

I've sent two sons to hesder. It's not easy, but it's right.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:31 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
If the full time learners are protecting the country, shouldn't they establish yeshivas along the Gaza borders, where they seem to be needed?


Scratching Head

Does spiritual protection have a particular radius?

Plus, the Rabbonim would say it's assur to place themselves in a makom sakana.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:34 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Scratching Head

Does spiritual protection have a particular radius?

Plus, the Rabbonim would say it's assur to place themselves in a makom sakana.


Convenient, no?

Soldiers are in a makom sakana by definition. Should the army disband?

Of course there's a spiritual radius. The gemara talks about talmidei chachamim protecting the city in which they live. It's time to move to cities that need protection.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:36 pm
So basically, OP, you started this thread to attack the Chareidi sector. Don't sugarcoat it and say you were trying to understand - you were not. You understand our position, but you disagree. It's ok to disagree, but it's not ok to call us disgusting and to accuse us of sinas chinam. Yes, the Chareidi sector does not feel that certain things are appropriate. I'm sure you are not surprised. Yes, our Rabbanim say certain things are wrong. You know this. So what was the question you were asking?

Sorry, no, your OP wasn't a question. It was a statement. That we are the correct brand of Judaism and yours is wrong. Maybe I think the same way, but I did not start this thread. You did. You decided to start something which is obviously inflammatory.

Shame on you! And I'm reporting my post to get this thread locked.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:36 pm
amother [ Coral ] wrote:
I ask a question, and instead of an answer, to better understand each other, I got attacked. It feels very close-minded and defensive, which is not how the question was asked. In fact, what I wrote originally, I deleted and rewrote, because I didn't want to be misinterpreted as judgements.

Regarding the American army, there is currently no draft. If there was, then it would apply.

I do not have sons, but my daughter very much wants to serve Israel in a capacity, as she feels that it is just as much our country and our responsibility to protect. May of my friends and relatives are Chayalim Bodedim.

To say that the DL and Torani boys in Hesder are not sufficiently frum is disgusting and chutzpah. Who are we to judge each other's branch and understanding of Torah Judaism?!?!?
IMO that falls very heavily under the category of sinat chinam. My beliefs and interpretation of the Torah and my minhagin may be different then yours but that doesn't make them less correct. Do not for one minute think that MO is watered down Torah Judaism. There may be some people who in every sect are more careful and stringent than others, but most of us are MO lechatchila, not bidieved.

In fact, I find some people here to be toxic and mean, what does your Rav say about that? Is it ok if the person is not chassidishe?

I am sorry if I came across as saying someone else's frumkeit is less than mine.
I see pewter's answer as the most correct:
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
If this is a genuine question, it should be met with sincere dialogue.

There is a place for us all. Some prioritize actual physical protection while others prioritize spiritual protection. It’s a great shidduch! All bases are covered!

What mommyg8 explained is what our Rabbanim say. What your Rabbanim say is what you, boruch Hashem, do.
I hope we are understood. (At least as well as Mommyg8 and sequoia understand each other. You crack me up)
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:38 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
So basically, OP, you started this thread to attack the Chareidi sector. Don't sugarcoat it and say you were trying to understand - you were not. You understand our position, but you disagree. It's ok to disagree, but it's not ok to call us disgusting and to accuse us of sinas chinam. Yes, the Chareidi sector does not feel that certain things are appropriate. I'm sure you are not surprised. Yes, our Rabbanim say certain things are wrong. You know this. So what was the question you were asking?

Sorry, no, your OP wasn't a question. It was a statement. That we are the correct brand of Judaism and yours is wrong. Maybe I think the same way, but I did not start this thread. You did. You decided to start something which is obviously inflammatory.

Shame on you! And I'm reporting my post to get this thread locked.

I think OP was actually asking (semi) respectfully. If you don't mind me saying, amother white was a bit caustic
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amother
Blue


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:42 pm
Chasidim make aliya because we love Eretz Yisrael.
I have a grandfather who made aliya in the time of Reb Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld and was his
Baal Tokea because it is a mitzva to live in the land of Israel.
We have family members in Eretz Yisrael who will avoid leaving Eretz Yisrael to vacation in Switzerland etc. because in their hashkafa it is questinable to leave the land of Israel other than to participate in a family simcha.
About the army: Shiva panim La'torah.
Our chasidish rebbe encourages his followers to vote, he encourages his followers to earn degrees, he is centrist in his hashkafa, he highly respects the hesder boys, but keeps his bochurim out of the army. He is aligned with Rav Shteinman's views on Nachal Hachareidi for boys who need it.
May hashem repay your men and boys for doing holy service of protecting the land physically and emotionally.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:42 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
I think OP was actually asking (semi) respectfully. If you don't mind me saying, amother white was a bit caustic


I'm sorry if I don't see it that way. Maybe her OP was respectful but her follow up was anything but. Because she clarified that she knows our position and disagrees. And accuses our Rabbanim of sinas chinam, etc.

This post unfortunately makes me glad I don't live in Israel.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:43 pm
Not the op, but why can't we have a conversation that goes beyond "my rabbi says"? Let's explore the different approaches. Not just what we do, but why.

I'm not likely to convince you that my way is right, but I think you might want to know that my derech is based on Torah. You don't have a monopoly on doing things for religious reasons. Some Jews are literally moser nefesh because they understand going to the army as ratzon Hashem. You are under no obligation to agree, but you really ought to recognize that there are Torah values at work here.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:43 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
Convenient, no?

Soldiers are in a makom sakana by definition. Should the army disband?

Of course there's a spiritual radius. The gemara talks about talmidei chachamim protecting the city in which they live. It's time to move to cities that need protection.

No, they should just be replaced by hired mercenaries so that no Jewish boys get kidnapped and lynched while serving the country, and the hesder boys shall retire to full time Torah learning in heavily protected yeshivos all along the Gaza strip.
How's that for solving world peace? LOL LOL
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:46 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
Not the op, but why can't we have a conversation that goes beyond "my rabbi says"? Let's explore the different approaches. Not just what we do, but why.

I'm not likely to convince you that my way is right, but I think you might want to know that my derech is based on Torah. You don't have a monopoly on doing things for religious reasons. Some Jews are literally moser nefesh because they understand going to the army as ratzon Hashem. You are under no obligation to agree, but you really ought to recognize that there are Torah values at work here.


I'm not sure why this thread was started, but now that we're here - which part of the Torah are you referring to? Which part of the Torah allows a secular medinah?
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