Why do chassidim make aliya? Split

amother

Coral

Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:49 pm

Mommy8- how wrong you are.
People can ask questions and try to gain a great understanding of each other, but I am guessing that is not your thing.
Not that I owe you an explanation, as you personally are just being nasty, but
I genuinely thought that people who live in Israel and don't defend the country and don't believe in or protect the state, didn't and don't make Aliya, but rather they were born there after many generations. (Or maybe grandparents came immediately after the holocaust).
I was surprised that people would be making Aliya or moving there without making Aliya and not be support the country in ALL capacities. I figured there are reasons behind that I was hoping to understand. Now all I think is negative.

amother

Olive

Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'm not sure why this thread was started, but now that we're here - which part of the Torah are you referring to? Which part of the Torah allows a secular medinah?

You seem to be coming from a viewpoint that everything is forbidden unless specifically allowed. Where does that come from?

Where do you learn that we are supposed to rely on miracles?

Hashem gave us the land of Israel. We have to do our part. If you don't like how things look, come on over and be a part of it.

WitchKitty

Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:55 pm

As I wrote, my parents brought us to E"y because of chinuch.
I would be living here if the Brits or Turks were still in control. We recognize the fact that there is a state, but do not commend it.
As so, we will do what the government wants us to do, unless it is opposed to the way we (and please, be respectful) keep yiddishkeit.
In other words: I act to Medinat Yisrael the same way I would act with the Turkish.

amother

Peach

Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:59 pm

In the torah, a difference is made about different types of war. There were those where all eligible men were required to fight, and those where far fewer men were required. According to many, the wars nowadays would fall under the second category, in which those who do not want to fight stay home. Others hold that an Israeli government not run entirely according to torah has no right to force people to serve in the army (among other issues). Why would people who hold that way move here or make aliya? Many reasons. Some may not have either held that way or understood Israeli politics at the time. Others feel that EY belongs to all Jews, regardless of how they feel about the government. I don't think that any Rabbanim hold that the current state of affairs is L'chatchilla, and the way the army is run is definitely not in line with the torah in so many ways. I, personally, question the sanity of any mother who WANTS her sons to have to fight in ANY army. I am not speaking of self defense - obviously that is a different issue, but when I hear of mothers who are so proud that their sons are fighting, and respond with anger to anyone who says that they hope it will not be an issue by the time their sons are of age, I really question their sanity.

Rappel

Tue, Jun 11 2019, 11:59 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

.

In fact, I find some people here to be toxic and mean, what does your Rav say about that? Is it ok if the person is not chassidishe?

This thread does smell funny to me, since I know plenty of Torani folk whom match the ideologies listed here.

*They refuse to serve in the IDF
*They refuse to acknowledge the state's authority
*They have total emunat hahamim
*Torah first, though they also hold that conquering EY is a current milchemet mitzvah, and thus will do things like chase down Arab thieves on Shabbat, burn down churches, etc.

(While we, personally, come from the strain of "work within the state until we can make Sanhedrin and Davidic monarchy," I sympathize greatly with the perspective of my friends.)

So why if everyone making this about Hasidim?

Last edited by Rappel on Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:00 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

My uncle moved to Israel in the early 1960's to learn under the Chazon Ish. He spoke a perfect English, but his children and grandchildren were born in Israel. Does that qualify as aliyah? My great uncle moved to Israel in the 1950's, he was Chassidish, also to learn. Other relatives moved to Israel to learn as well. Do they count as making Aliyah? Or how would you define them?

Yes, our Rabbanim are against the boys joining the army the way it is structured right now. Which, and I'm guessing because I don't live in Israel, is that the army is not as friendly to Chareidim as they would need it to be.

There is a separate point about learning very long term, which is how it is in America as well.

You said that we have sinas chinam- but on this thread, all the chareidim - besides me - were respectful, and those on the other side were the ones ridiculing. So no, this thread was not respectful.

If it makes me the evil one for pointing out the hypocrisy here - so be it. I'm ok, I can handle it.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:02 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

This is the point we disagree on. No, the country was not started by frum people. Hashem did not give US the land.

ETA : I'm reading this again - I was responding to a post that all this is in the Torah. Which it's absolutely not.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:07 am

sequoia wrote:

Jews - all of us.

Frum people are a subset of Jews in general but not a separate category.

The Torah says very clearly that if you don't follow the Torah and mitzvos, we will be expelled from the land. The land itself is kodosh, and will vomit up it's inhabitants if they don't follow Torah and mitzvos. So no, the land will only allow frum people - and even then, only if they follow the Torah completely.

amother

Olive

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:09 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

It's quite definitely in the Torah that Hashem gave the Jews the land. That includes us. Or do you not believe that the words of Torah apply today?

sequoia

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:14 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

First of all, that’s impossible, since all humans are imperfect and do aveiros. No one in history has ever followed the Torah completely.

Second, how do you explain that the country is flourishing - medical and technological advances, education, charity, a home for millions of Soviet and Arab Jews?

Third, how do you explain all the OPEN MIRACLES over the past 70 years? The hand of God clearly visible, guiding our soldiers, protecting the country from its enemies? How do you explain the victory in the 6 Day War?

amother

Olive

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:14 am

WitchKitty wrote:

You know, if you want to enjoy kedushas Eretz Yisroel without the treife medine, you can move to Shechem or Yericho. Let us know how that works out.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:15 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

It's quite definitely in the Torah that Hashem gave the Jews the land. That includes us. Or do you not believe that the words of Torah apply today?

Like I said before, Hashem gave the land to those who believe in Him. Who follow his Torah and mitzvos.

For those that don't believe in the Torah, what right do they have to the land?

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:21 am

sequoia wrote:

The bolded is why we've been in golus for over two thousand years.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second paragraph. Haven't Jews always been on the forefront of every serious world movement? Socialism, feminism, communism.... they're pretty successful in America too? And the Arab Jews wouldn't have needed a home if Israel would not have been established....

Many have explained that the victory of the Six Day War was completely natural and was actually predicted by the US military in advance.

But even for the open miracles - didn't I explain the reason? Because of all the men who were learning.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:23 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

You know, if you want to enjoy kedushas Eretz Yisroel without the treife medine, you can move to Shechem or Yericho. Let us know how that works out.

There is just as much kedusha in the land in Shechem and Yericho. If there would suddenly be a friendly Arab government in those places, it would be just as much of a mitzvah to live there...

zohar

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:24 am

Regarding the original question, Aliya to Eretz Yisroel by chassidim and other chareidim predates Zionism by centuries! They came when it was hard to travel to and hard to live in E"Y. Op, your attitude does not serve the dati leumi well. You seem so wrapped up in the Israeli identity that you forgot about simple kedushas haaretz. You can't imagine why people would want to live in Eretz Yisroel if they are not totally supportive of the Medina.

About army service, while there may be some halachic problems surrounding the issue, it comes down to that chareidim don't feel that their bochurim belong in the army. It's not a good environment for them, specifically b'ruchnios. Why is this so surprising? This is a community that values being sheltered to varying degrees. College is not particularly encouraged, and when they do go, they won't live in campus.

Rappel

Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:33 am

zohar wrote:

The students of the Vilna Gaon came with hoes in their baggage, so that they could start working the land as soon as they got here. I'm pretty sure that's something we can all get behind. Very Happy