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Why do chassidim make aliya? Split
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:38 am
sequoia wrote:
Currently, though, you’d get murdered.


Aye. Though again, our friends go in there frequently. Not as tourists, but as hunters, when they're chasing stolen livestock or machinery. Long beards and Long peyot, so no one is missing out on the fact that these gentlemen are Jewish. When they come, they don't attack anyone who doesn't attack them, and people stay out of their way.


When Jews act as we should, then our rightful inheritance of EY comes naturally, because that's how G-d meant it to be.
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:42 am
Rappel wrote:
The students of the Vilna Gaon came with hoes in their baggage, so that they could start working the land as soon as they got here. I'm pretty sure that's something we can all get behind. Very Happy


Yes. I agree. I think the government should work to remove barriers to employment for chareidim. Also, if they eased of the requirement to be learning full time to avoid the draft, it would make it easier for the culture to change and more chareidim would join the workforce. Right now, I think that both sides of the argument are dancing around the falsehood that the central issue is Torah learning. It's not. It's there belief that the army is a bad environment by it's nature for young chareidi men.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:43 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
The bolded is why we've been in golus for over two thousand years.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second paragraph. Haven't Jews always been on the forefront of every serious world movement? Socialism, feminism, communism.... they're pretty successful in America too? And the Arab Jews wouldn't have needed a home if Israel would not have been established....

Many have explained that the victory of the Six Day War was completely natural and was actually predicted by the US military in advance.

But even for the open miracles - didn't I explain the reason? Because of all the men who were learning.


Here is a link to a short video that focuses on the military/diplomatic miracles of the Six Day War.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i3uIz7hoYs
The narrator is a bit annoying but it's worth watching if you can get past that.
About the claim that the war was won because of the men who were learning - there is no way to know why and on account of whose merits Hashem granted us this incredible miracle.
Just make sure you don't try tellling this theory to any mother, widow or orphan who lost their son/husband/father in any of the war's battles. I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate your denigration of their loved ones' mesirut nefesh.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:48 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Like I said before, Hashem gave the land to those who believe in Him. Who follow his Torah and mitzvos.

For those that don't believe in the Torah, what right do they have to the land?


Actually, there's no entrance exam. The promise is eternal and unconditional. If we don't serve Hashem, we'll be expelled, but we are promised that we will do teshuva and return. There is no promise that we will not need an army.

Hashem is patient with us. We came into the land and didn't build the Mikdash for four hundred years. And when we did, there was widespread avoda zara. And Hashem gave us another four hundred years before exiling us. And after seventy years, Hashem brought us back for another chance.

Right now, the land is in Jewish hands. We are not being expelled. It takes time to build a perfect society. Should we not try? Should we throw our gift back like ingrates? Should we let Jews be slaughtered in the streets because we're too holy to protect ourselves?

You seem to think that all we have to do is lie back and wait for a perfect society to appear. Where does that come from?
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 12:53 am
Thank you, Zohar, for a very well articulated answer. I have been sitting here at the computer for a while trying to come up with an answer that fits the questions, but won't cause a flood of hate filled responses! This is too emotional a topic for most of us.

I made aliya after coming for a summer and not being able to imagine living anywhere else in the world. My husband has a similar story. After a while, we became aware that our Chassidus is not in favor of Medinas Yisroel, but by then we had already discovered many of the issues for ourselves. We try very hard to avoid politics, and do not tell others what they should or shouldn't do as far as the army. B"H, when my DH went in for his physical, they decided that he wasn't matim for them. The way things stand now, I would try very hard to keep my children out of the army, and make no apologies for it. Besides the fact that being in the army is not exactly good for anyone's ruchnius, I don't believe that any of my children are physically suited for the army.

Mommyg8, I agree with much of what you are saying, but there are posters here who are simply looking for those to hate. Crying Let's try not to make it easier for them! Feeling beat up
waiting
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Israeli_C




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:02 am
Mommygr8 basically said everything I feel but am not eloquent enough to put it into words as she has, so thank you to her, especially re Torah learning as protection from our enemies.

My personal experiences - dh was in the army for a decade before he did tshuva and finished his contract (it was his time to move on, no connection to one another). There were a few special 'haredi programs' going on in his base (not combat) and he honestly admitted that their service has a detrimental impact on them in terms of staying frum. The army - even 'special programs' only for charedim, pose a huge challenge to maintaining one's yiddishkeit.

fyi I don't know why the OP singles out chasssidim. Davka most people I know who didn't serve are Litvaks

Edit: if in another 16 years my son wants to serve, I'll be very proud of him and see it as shlichut. Ditto if he chooses to learn.


Last edited by Israeli_C on Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:05 am
This thread is making me so sad.
I'm just sitting here and crying.
I love you all so much that it hurts reading these posts.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:08 am
yerushamama wrote:


Mommyg8, I agree with much of what you are saying, but there are posters here who are simply looking for those to hate. Crying Let's try not to make it easier for them! Feeling beat up
waiting


I don’t hate you, I don’t hate anybody on this thread, disagreement isn’t hate, and vigorous debate is part of the Jewish tradition.
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:11 am
sequoia wrote:
I don’t hate you, I don’t hate anybody on this thread, disagreement isn’t hate, and vigorous debate is part of the Jewish tradition.


Your posts have been respectful debate. Some of the amothers are posting things that are quite hateful.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:13 am
Israeli_C wrote:
Mommygr8 basically said everything I feel but am not eloquent enough to put it into words as she has, so thank you to her, especially re Torah learning as protection from our enemies.

My personal experiences - dh was in the army for a decade before he did tshuva and finished his contract (it was his time to move on, no connection to one another). There were a few special 'haredi programs' going on in his base (not combat) and he honestly admitted that their service has a detrimental impact on them in terms of staying frum. The army - even 'special programs' only for charedim, pose a huge challenge to maintaining one's yiddishkeit.

fyi I don't know why the OP singles out chasssidim. Davka most people I know who didn't serve are Litvaks

Edit: if in another 16 years my son wants to serve, I'll be very proud of him and see it as shlichut. Ditto if he chooses to learn.


FYI, many of the guys coming into the army on programs for charedim were looking for a way out of the charedi world to begin with. This is just the first step away. I wish Nachal Charedi were more successful, but so far it hasn't been working as planned.

It sounds like you aren't familiar with hesder. There are guys learning and keeping mitzvos in the army. In fact, they serve as role models and a kiddush Hashem for soldiers who have never met religious people. Ask soldiers who have served with "beinishim" about their experience.
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Israeli_C




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:16 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
FYI, many of the guys coming into the army on programs for charedim were looking for a way out of the charedi world to begin with. This is just the first step away. I wish Nachal Charedi were more successful, but so far it hasn't been working as planned.

It sounds like you aren't familiar with hesder. There are guys learning and keeping mitzvos in the army. In fact, they serve as role models and a kiddush Hashem for soldiers who have never met religious people. Ask soldiers who have served with "beinishim" about their experience.


True, many already come spiritually weak, but it's a vicious cycle. I'm aware of hesder- great for DL Torani but not aimed at the charedi public
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:36 am
That is actually one of the issues that many have with nachal chareidi - if it wasn't available, many of those who are going through a spiritual crisis would work through it , but instead, they end up in the army. Nachal chareidi is not frum, although there are frum people in it. For someone going through a spiritual crisis, having so much pressure to conform to the general army outlook makes it highly unlikely that they will remain frum.

As for Hesder, part of the reason that it works is because the bochurim go in as units made up of their fellow hesderniks, rather than being mixed into the regular army as individuals. If I remember correctly, though, Hesder was not meant as a l'chatchilla, but rather a b'dieved solution to the need for soldiers during war.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:41 am
yerushamama wrote:
That is actually one of the issues that many have with nachal chareidi - if it wasn't available, many of those who are going through a spiritual crisis would work through it , but instead, they end up in the army. Nachal chareidi is not frum, although there are frum people in it. For someone going through a spiritual crisis, having so much pressure to conform to the general army outlook makes it highly unlikely that they will remain frum.

As for Hesder, part of the reason that it works is because the bochurim go in as units made up of their fellow hesderniks, rather than being mixed into the regular army as individuals. If I remember correctly, though, Hesder was not meant as a l'chatchilla, but rather a b'dieved solution to the need for soldiers during war.


No, hesder is intended lechatchila. And charedi yeshivas could do the same if they wanted to, but they don't.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:47 am
To those who say the army "isn't suitable" for "our boys" --

The army isn't "suitable" for many people. It's not fun. It's hard work. It is a sacrifice. It can be dangerous -- we live in a tiny country in an unfriendly part of the world.

You know what else isn't "suitable" for many people? Paying taxes. Signalling before changing lanes. Pulling over to help at the scene of an accident. Helping an old lady cross the street. Doing your fair share to contribute to a civil society.

It's would be quite galling to anyone expecting you to do any of these tasks to say "Gosh, I don't need to do all those things, because I daven and study Torah, so I'm actually doing MORE than all of you." If you think that goes over well, you completely lack self-awareness.

The average Israeli views the institutional opposition to IDF service among charedim (chassidim, Litvaks, et al) as mere selfishness. They see that the army continuously comes up with new programs to try and meet the needs of charedim and it is never enough. These initiative are always opposed because these groups and their leadership have no intention of serving.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:52 am
And everyone who argues about chareidim and army forgets the many secular draft dodgers and that the arme (+reserves) is way bigger than needed. Maybe the draft should be rethought altogether.
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 1:55 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
No, hesder is intended lechatchila. And charedi yeshivas could do the same if they wanted to, but they don't.


Actually, at this point, they could not. Politicians (not army officials) want all chareidim in the army in order to force mingling with non-religious. That is the stated goal. (I don't keep track of who said what, but I do remember seeing this stated in campaign literature geared at non-religious areas).
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Israeli_C




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 2:01 am
I think you're trivializing the issue. It's more than being 'unsuitable' - it's outright dangerous for their yiddishkeit. Haredim have no problem doing things which are 'not fun' and 'hard work' - the majority live a not so easy life because they have ideals which are important for them. It's most certainly not a matter of laziness or selfishness. Problem is, our secular government has no qualms in making compromises on yiddishkeit which have a huge, far reaching impact on Jews, and simply don't care. Many government policies are simply anti-yiddishkeit. So a haredi mother is supposed to hand over her child - who she educated in Torah values from birth and prepared for a very specific way of life- to a system which sometimes toes the line til maintaining Torah values is no longer convenient?
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mochamix18




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 2:25 am
Quote:
My personal experiences - dh was in the army for a decade before he did tshuva and finished his contract (it was his time to move on, no connection to one another). There were a few special 'haredi programs' going on in his base (not combat) and he honestly admitted that their service has a detrimental impact on them in terms of staying frum. The army - even 'special programs' only for charedim, pose a huge challenge to maintaining one's yiddishkeit.

fyi I don't know why the OP singles out chasssidim. Davka most people I know who didn't serve are Litvaks

Edit: if in another 16 years my son wants to serve, I'll be very proud of him and see it as shlichut. Ditto if he chooses to learn.


You’re response could have been mine. My husband also served in the IDF as a young man and made many of the same observations registering chareidi programs in the army that your husband did. We now identify as chareidi, and hold the same views for our children in the future.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 2:48 am
Israeli_C wrote:
I think you're trivializing the issue. It's more than being 'unsuitable' - it's outright dangerous for their yiddishkeit. Haredim have no problem doing things which are 'not fun' and 'hard work' - the majority live a not so easy life because they have ideals which are important for them. It's most certainly not a matter of laziness or selfishness. Problem is, our secular government has no qualms in making compromises on yiddishkeit which have a huge, far reaching impact on Jews, and simply don't care. Many government policies are simply anti-yiddishkeit. So a haredi mother is supposed to hand over her child - who she educated in Torah values from birth and prepared for a very specific way of life- to a system which sometimes toes the line til maintaining Torah values is no longer convenient?

Oh, the army is dangerous? I didn't realize that.

Look, there are ways to deal with situations, and certainly in the all-charedi units and chesder programs there are policies that make all sorts of allowances for religious chayalim. They can combine Torah learning with military service, they have a shortened military service, they serve in all male all religious units, etc etc etc. If you qualify, you can serve in Intelligence and basically have a desk job for a few years. Nope -- not good enough.

The response from the charedi public is to simply move the goalposts each time and become more and more inflexible and demanding. Because when it comes right down to it, they have the political pull to get away with it and get exemptions, so why not be selfish and get your way? As long as other friarim are willing to lay their lives on the line to protect you, why risk anything?

Oh, and please find a mother who has an 18 year old son serving in a combat unit and explain that your son can't serve because it is "too dangerous." Let me know how it goes.
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Israeli_C




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 12 2019, 2:56 am
DrMom wrote:
Oh, the army is dangerous? I didn't realize that.

Look, there are ways to deal with situations, and certainly in the all-charedi units and chesder programs there are policies that make all sorts of allowances for religious chayalim. They can combine Torah learning with military service, they have a shortened military service, they serve in all male all religious units, etc etc etc. If you qualify, you can serve in Intelligence and basically have a desk job for a few years. Nope -- not good enough.

The response from the charedi public is to simply move the goalposts each time and become more and more inflexible and demanding. Because when it comes right down to it, they have the political pull to get away with it and get exemptions, so why not be selfish and get your way? As long as other friarim are willing to lay their lives on the line to protect you, why risk anything?

Oh, and please find a mother who has an 18 year old son serving in a combat unit and explain that your son can't serve because it is "too dangerous." Let me know how it goes.


I debated whether I'd even bother to reply given the unnecessarily scathing tone of your post, but I found it amusing how you singled out intelligence as a 'safe' route when that's in fact exactly where my dh served in a high rank for 10 years and davka that was where he saw a lot of extremely problematic behaviour which is totally at odds with our way of life. 'Concessions' and 'special conditions' are made until - since non religious Jews are ultimately pulling the strings - a day comes when it is inconvenient for them or they don't see why it's such a big deal and they take the easier route. I could give very specific examples of when this happened in dh's base but I don't want to give away his identity.
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