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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:04 am
Israeli_C wrote:
I debated whether I'd even bother to reply given the unnecessarily scathing tone of your post, but I found it amusing how you singled out intelligence as a 'safe' route when that's in fact exactly where my dh served in a high rank for 10 years and davka that was where he saw a lot of extremely problematic behaviour which is totally at odds with our way of life. 'Concessions' and 'special conditions' are made until - since non religious Jews are ultimately pulling the strings - a day comes when it is inconvenient for them or they don't see why it's such a big deal and they take the easier route. I could give very specific examples of when this happened in dh's base but I don't want to give away his identity.

You can't support huge numbers of religious Jews refusing to serve in the army and then complain that only non-religious Jews are in charge.

BTW, I see things that are "at odds with my way of life" at work, or when I was in university, etc. I deal with it.

And if you serve in a unit specially designed for religious men, there will be less of it, and there will be ways to reinforce your yiddishkeit built into your program.

It's about making an effort.
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yerushamama




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:10 am
DRMom, have you actually had loved ones serve in the IDF?
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Israeli_C




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:17 am
DrMom wrote:
You can't support huge numbers of religious Jews refusing to serve in the army and then complain that only non-religious Jews are in charge.

BTW, I see things that are "at odds with my way of life" at work, or when I was in university, etc. I deal with it.

And if you serve in a unit specially designed for religious men, there will be less of it, and there will be ways to reinforce your yiddishkeit built into your program.

It's about making an effort.


Difference is that if charedim decide not to attend your uni or workplace, nobody cares or drafts laws compelling them. Just because you choose to put yourself in such situations doesn't mean everyone else should. Solutions to problems in the army don't start in the army, they start with government policies, and so long as the government doesn't care about yiddishkeit, real changes can't take place
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oliveoil




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:26 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
It's actually just the opposite. YOU are the ones being protected by the men who are learning. If not for the very frum, Israel would be gone a long time ago. Because Eretz Yisroel is not a land like all the other lands, it is a land that vomits up It's inhabitants if they do wrong. The only reason it is still in existence is from the zchus of those who are learning Torah.

אֵ֣לֶּה בָ֖רֶכֶב וְאֵ֣לֶּה בַסּוּסִ֑ים וַֽאֲנַ֓חְנוּ | בְּשֵׁם־יְהֹוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵ֣ינוּ נַזְכִּֽיר


There will still be plenty of people learning at all times. It's not like every Torah-learning Jew is serving at the same time.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:35 am
yerushamama wrote:
DRMom, have you actually had loved ones serve in the IDF?

Yes.
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oliveoil




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:37 am
DrMom wrote:


The average Israeli views the institutional opposition to IDF service among charedim (chassidim, Litvaks, et al) as mere selfishness. They see that the army continuously comes up with new programs to try and meet the needs of charedim and it is never enough. These initiative are always opposed because these groups and their leadership have no intention of serving.


Yup. Kinda like the anti-vaxxers who rely on herd immunity.
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etky




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:50 am
Israeli_C wrote:
Difference is that if charedim decide not to attend your uni or workplace, nobody cares or drafts laws compelling them. Just because you choose to put yourself in such situations doesn't mean everyone else should. Solutions to problems in the army don't start in the army, they start with government policies, and so long as the government doesn't care about yiddishkeit, real changes can't take place


You don't see the difference between a university or workplace - where you engage for your own private benefit - and service (yes, service!) in the army where you are engaging for the public benefit (not to mention even often risking your life)? To my mind, this is a moral, not only a legal imperative, and the haredi position of not serving is immoral to my mind, even if it supposedly stems from a religious position. Moshe said if perfectly: האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?ץ
And no, I do not accept the arguement of learning, specifically and exclusively in the haredi format = military protection, and neither does most of the population of Israel.
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yerushamama




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 3:53 am
DrMom wrote:
Yes.


Then please tell us,from an informed point of view, what the army's attitude is towards religious soldiers. Most people that I have spoken to have had extremely negative experiences in terms of ability to daven, learn (even during their free time), Shabbos, and Kashrus. From what I understood from them, it was at least as bad in the nachal chareidi. Were the experiences of those you know different?
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Israeli_C




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 4:05 am
oliveoil wrote:
Yup. Kinda like the anti-vaxxers who rely on herd immunity.


Would you also tell someone in intelligence that he was relying on 'herd immunity' because he's not combat? Of course not. Likewise, a bachur who learns also plays a role in the protection of EY. Yissachar and Zevlun need one another to achieve a common goal- the safety of the land. One who believes that our safety is solely in the hands of tanks and army generals is quite frankly lacking in emuna.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 4:10 am
yerushamama wrote:
Then please tell us,from an informed point of view, what the army's attitude is towards religious soldiers. Most people that I have spoken to have had extremely negative experiences in terms of ability to daven, learn (even during their free time), Shabbos, and Kashrus. From what I understood from them, it was at least as bad in the nachal chareidi. Were the experiences of those you know different?

I will ask them and gather some information.

I have an extensive family through my DH which includes several chayalim or former chayalim who served with distinction in combat units and who studied for smicha during this time. One of them (now a rabbi) engaged in hand-to-hand combat in Lebanon. Another was wounded in Gaza in 2014 and given an honorable discharge, but he insisted on serving after he completed PT and went on to serve with distinction.

Maybe they encountered difficulties with the issues you listed. As I said I will ask them. But they all served with distinction and a deepened sense of yiddishkeit.

These people have an attitude I deeply admire: They find ways to cope with any non-ideal conditions they encounter and have a strong sense of duty toward their fellow Jew. They earn respect, and they leverage this respect to make changes if necessary. They don't whine and shirk their duty until everything is 100% perfect.
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etky




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 4:13 am
Israeli_C wrote:
Would you also tell someone in intelligence that he was relying on 'herd immunity' because he's not combat? Of course not. Likewise, a bachur who learns also plays a role in the protection of EY. Yissachar and Zevlun need one another to achieve a common goal- the safety of the land. One who believes that our safety is solely in the hands of tanks and army generals is quite frankly lacking in emuna.


There are other perspectives too you know.
Like, that one can combine the two.
And no, I don't believe that a Yissachar Zevulun arrangement exists today. At least Zevulun doesn't accept it....
In any case - isn't that arrangement contingent on their being a "legitimate Jewish state" to defend - which apparently is not the case from the haredi perspective
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werty




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 4:57 am
The way I see it, there are two questions here:
1) why do charedi politicians fight for cgaredi exemption?
2) why don't charedim serve ?

The answer to number 2 is simple: They don't have to , because they currently are exempt. Just like Americans from the American army. No, they don't want to for idealistic/ Zionist reasons, because they have other ideals that they prioritize. You know, freedom of opinion. Surely that's OK with you.

The answer to number 1 is a bigger question, because, really, on what grounds are charedim exempt? The establishment of the country doesn't value extreme tzniut standards, Torah learning etc, so why would they agree to burden the whole country, because of those values?
Honestly, I think its simply that the charedi politicians have the power so they use it. You could call them corrupt , that's a different discussion. I doubt all charedim respect them either.

But it only makes sense for charedim as regular people to use the exemption they have.
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aquad




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 5:16 am
I think Torah learning does protect us and is important as part of our national identity. BUT:
1. If learning is as or more important than the military, why aren't the yeshivos resumed during bein hazmanim during wars and increased terror?
2. Why are the yeshivos in the South relocated ( https://www.bhol.co.il/news/740164) to safer areas when their presence to protect the country is needed there? All the sources for the idea of 'learning Torah provides physical protection' are on a city basis. (Talmidei chachamim don't need to contribute to building city defenses as their Torah learning provides protection.)
3. Everything written by Natan Slifkin: http://www.rationalistjudaism......t.html?m=1

My brother served, my cousins served, my four year old son will someday serve. They all went through hesder. I have no problem with deferments for some yeshiva students- and I expect them in times of war to learn all day and all night to protect their fellow Jews, when my brother is marching through Gaza day and night to stop the rockets.
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amother




Slategray


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 5:28 am
aquad wrote:
I think Torah learning does protect us and is important as part of our national identity. BUT:
1. If learning is as or more important than the military, why aren't the yeshivos resumed during bein hazmanim during wars and increased terror?
2. Why are the yeshivos in the South relocated ( https://www.bhol.co.il/news/740164) to safer areas when their presence to protect the country is needed there? All the sources for the idea of 'learning Torah provides physical protection' are on a city basis. (Talmidei chachamim don't need to contribute to building city defenses as their Torah learning provides protection.)
3. Everything written by Natan Slifkin: http://www.rationalistjudaism......t.html?m=1

My brother served, my cousins served, my four year old son will someday serve. They all went through hesder. I have no problem with deferments for some yeshiva students- and I expect them in times of war to learn all day and all night to protect their fellow Jews, when my brother is marching through Gaza day and night to stop the rockets.


I'm quietly following this thread. I'm not gonna give a whole big opinion. I just want to answer to your point 1. that my husband's yeshiva actually has resumed during bein hazmanim during wars and times of terror. I can't speak for other yeshivas, but that's an entirely different topic.
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aquad




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 5:31 am
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
I'm quietly following this thread. I'm not gonna give a whole big opinion. I just want to answer to your point 1. that my husband's yeshiva actually has resumed during bein hazmanim during wars and times of terror. I can't speak for other yeshivas, but that's an entirely different topic.


Yofi. So I'll say it wholeheartedly: thank you for your service. (I'd be happier if there was also night shifts all the way till dawn, because I don't know who else was learning while my brother was doing all night guard shifts and learning mishnayos to stay awake.)
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amother




Peach


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 5:50 am
As I understand it, when the State of Israel was established, there were three major opinions among the frum about how to look at it, halachicly.

1 - Any Jewish government not run according to Halacha is not considered to be legitimate, therefore they have as little to do with the government as possible in all areas.
2 - This situation (Jewish gov not according to halacha) is at best bidieved, so work from within to change things
3 - Any Jewish government in EY is a step towards bringing Mashiach.

Under none of these outlooks is an Israeli army l'chatchila - at best, it is what we must do until Mashiach arrives.

That being the case, how can someone who davens for Mashiach to come any day be proud of the fact that their toddler will serve in the IDF when the time comes? The reason that Tisha B'Av is such a tragic day is that it highlights the fact that Mashiach still hasn't come!
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amother




Khaki


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 5:59 am
I have to go anonymous for this because it contains information that identifies me IRL.

Can someone explain the "spiritual danger" of serving in the army to me, please?

I have served in the army, in uniform, voluntarily, in my profession.
It was difficult to get a heter for it, I had to go heter-shopping, something which I normally don't do. But I still think I did the right thing. Now, 10 years later, I'm still working for the army as a civilian employee (אע"צ) on a base. I'm a frum woman, and very visibly so, and I don't think the army did any harm to that. If anything, it inspires me to keep going. Of course I'm DL and some will think that's not worth anything anyway.
But let's look at the dangerous army.
True, the army in general is not a frum environment. It is a melting pot of Jews and even some non-Jews, from very varied backgrounds. Army policies can be insensitive to frum needs at times. Is that a reason to drop everything and become secular? No. It's a reason to be creative and stand up for one's rights.
A few examples from my experience: When I was in uniform, they at first refused to give me a skirt for my מדי ב (work uniform). I did not want to wear trousers. So, I took the trousers they gave me, cut them up at night and sewed the pieces into a skirt. It looked pretty patch-worky and my mefaked was aghast. 2 days later I got a set of proper uniform skirts.
Food: the army is kosher on principle. They have mashgichim in the kitchens. However, some smaller and remoter bases are sloppy about it. In those cases, it is possible to insist on Badadtz hechsher menues which come double-wrapped in plastic boxes, which I did at times. Nachal Chareidi get only Badatz standard as a default.
One time, my army course went to a non-kosher restaurant. They are not supposed to, but well. So I took a nice walk and sat outside in the meantime. Bugger, but not a reason to either go treif or leave the army.
Shabbat: a lot of what the army does on Shabbat is defined by Rabbanim as pikuach nefesh. Therefore not just permitted but obligatory. And by the way, every base has a Rav of its own. Sometimes secular soldiers and mefakdim are mechalel Shabbat for no good reason. Again, an opportunity to stand up. I yelled once at people who were cleaning and vacuuming jeeps on Shabbat.
Soldiers are always good for surprises. Two blokes I could have sworn were totally secular, one morning in Ellul I found them in a room wrapped up with Tallit and Tefillin. Didn't trust my eyes first. A bunch of secular girl soldiers was having a fiery debate about berachot over lunch. A fellow soldier from my course was very touched by the Pessach Seder on base - she grew up in a secular kibbutz and had never been at a seder before. I find these things touching, and for me it inspires me to be more Jewish, not less. Have to stop here, my lunch break is over and I have to get back to my soldiers. I'm on base right now...
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amother




Olive


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 6:25 am
yerushamama wrote:
Then please tell us,from an informed point of view, what the army's attitude is towards religious soldiers. Most people that I have spoken to have had extremely negative experiences in terms of ability to daven, learn (even during their free time), Shabbos, and Kashrus. From what I understood from them, it was at least as bad in the nachal chareidi. Were the experiences of those you know different?


Mom of two hesder boys here. The army did whatever it could to facilitate davening, learning, Shabbos and kashrus. There was time for minyan 3 times a day, though obviously if you were on duty and couldn't be on base, you were on your own. There's no hot milchigs food at all in army kitchens, meat and milk are prepared in different rooms, and treifing up the kitchen gets you sent to army jail.
My boys served on bases that had fully stocked shuls and batei midrash. Their yeshivas sent ramim to learn with them. The general rule when on guard duty is that it's ok to learn mishnayos, but gemara waits for downtime.
My sons and their friends returned home frum and invigorated. It was very hard, but I think they all understood what service to the klal is about.
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amother




Lime


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 6:41 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
Mom of two hesder boys here. The army did whatever it could to facilitate davening, learning, Shabbos and kashrus. There was time for minyan 3 times a day, though obviously if you were on duty and couldn't be on base, you were on your own. There's no hot milchigs food at all in army kitchens, meat and milk are prepared in different rooms, and treifing up the kitchen gets you sent to army jail.
My boys served on bases that had fully stocked shuls and batei midrash. Their yeshivas sent ramim to learn with them. The general rule when on guard duty is that it's ok to learn mishnayos, but gemara waits for downtime.
My sons and their friends returned home frum and invigorated. It was very hard, but I think they all understood what service to the klal is about.

Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I was about to post all of this and then saw you posted before I could!
My 20 yr old is currently serving and my 18 yr old is on his way soon.
My son davens 3x a day, answers everyone's questions about religiosity and is honored to be serving our country.
There's plenty of sifrei torah on his base and the frum soldiers all learn when they have a chance.

I have many friends, neighbors and cousins who all served and became even stronger in their Judaism when their service was over.
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amother




Blonde


Post  Wed, Jun 12 2019, 6:46 am
My husband, my son, 3 SILs and 2 grandsons (so far) all served in the IDF. Some in hesder units, and my son and grandsons who learn and learned in a yeshiva gvohah, (2 in Har HaMor which is the flagship of chardal yeshivot) served in regular units - one in Golani and the other 2 in Shiryon (the armored corps). The army did not have any detrimental effect on their observance. On the other hand, they all felt they had a positive effect on those around them. They served because they had to. They felt it was a chiyuv, a mitzva, and a privilege.
Did they like it? No, mostly they hated it and were very happy when it was over, but they do miluim every year -including my son, father of five little children. Of course I'm proud of them, aren't you?
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